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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 2:46:22 PM
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How about a "combo" class with say modern buckets and 125cc 2 stroke oldies. They should be pretty evenly matched. If buckets are not usually at the SC, it may be a way to add a few more bikes.
You could run it as a handicap event if necessary or start the faster bike in a second wave after say 10 seconds or whatever is appropriate.
From CB72
It could be the cheapest class on the planet.
Or allow any CB160/175 Honda to come and play and find a new name for the whole thing - like say GP200.
Pre 68 200cc 4 stroke
Pre 72 125cc 2 stroke singles
Pre 72 125 twins with restrictions (or not!)
Post 72 buckets according to their rules.
can you give us more info about this idea please?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 3:12:52 PM
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Thanks John, I'd love to.
This is a response to the combined issues of small grids especially in the 125cc class.
I was thinking outside the twin boxes of capacity and years. The current system is designed to represent the eras and to be somewhat fair by matching bikes by age and size. That is the right thing to do,but it's not as effective as it used to be because times and machines and technologies have marched on.
That was a great idea back in the seventies, but maybe it is due for an update. The basic premise is that we want larger grids on the track of bikes that are close to the same potential performance in the hands of riders of equal skills. That's the objective.
So it's a first attempt at defining an index of performance class for small bikes. The specifics need to be worked through to see if the suggestions make sense and where they have holes.
In the US, the most fun class is GP200 and the biggest grids are probably F250 which is 90% CB350Ks. The US has never had big 125 grids and tended to have a 200cc class instead.
Making it a notionally 200cc class but allowing all manner of other small bikes in that may not get enough track time was the rationale.
So we start with 2000cc bikes up to say 1968(ish) and there are lots of those. Add in 125 two strokes and and maybe buckets and see if that works.
Does something like that make sense? Play with the cut off dates and mix of bikes. Restrict newer bikes and 2 strokes to say 125cc, or 100cc whatever makes sense in OZ given availability of bikes in those sizes.
Obviously a modern 2 stroke say Aprila RS125 would not be welcome in that class but maybe try two wave starts with say slower bikes up front and make th later 125s wait 15 seconds or 30 or whatever works. It's about a fun class with many different ways to get there.
That would still be a Historic class and it would be a good one to test the waters for future rules changes.
Of course that isn't how things have been done and that's the point. Time to try something different.
Kick it around among yourselves. Come up with a list of bikes or start with say the AHRMA list of 200GP class and use that as an idea starter to compile a list of bikes available in Australia.
I'm just throwing it out there as a way to break the logjam and start a discussion.
What do you think?
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 09:00:06 AM
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We virtually have a 200cc class here already. Its called Buckets.
It is very strong in N.S.W. but not so here in Victoria.
It also looks like becoming a homeless class up there.
The big stumbling block is that most buckets do not qualify as historics under our current rules as they are basically old bikes that have been modernised to the point where they have no connection with historic racing.
I do not think that U.S. ideas have any place in Australian historic racing.
Different countries, different cultures, different circumstances.
We have already been polluted by Class C. Tractor racing anyone?
We created our own problems and it is up to us to solve them.
We need to simplify, not complicate the situation.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 09:08:56 AM
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Well a number of those buckets are log booked and can race with Historics.
As for the tractor class I think it is the best thing we have done since sliced bread. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 1:16:55 PM
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There are, indeed, some log booked buckets in N.S.W., most, I imagine would either be CB125 based or would be 100cc 2 strokes. Distance and cost may well prevent them from entering our meetings.
They got into Buckets because it offered a relatively cheap way to race.
Time will tell.
As for tractors................well, you race a sidecar and have a farm.
How could you not like tractor racing.
See you in the morning, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 4:02:32 PM
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What I suggested was there appears to be an opportunity to think outside the box and to look at what others are doing and to pick the best out of those ideas and modify them to suit what is available in Australia.
Looking at what works elsewhere and seeing how that might be adapted for local conditions is always a smart approach and is known generally as Best Practices.
You are absolutely right that the US is a very different place and machine availability and popularity is quite different. Any solution you come up with has to be a local solution that is geared to your history and conditions.
That does not mean that nothing can change, but it can't change unless there is a need for change and someone to drive a change and that would be someone there.
I'd suggest working with HMRAV on defining what, if anything, needs to be changed and if there is consensus that change is required, then start the conversation as to what that change might be.
If there is any way I can assist, please email me.
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 5:01:22 PM
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I was goint to say "just adapt the WERA (US) rules for the Southern Classic meeting". but then I read them....phewww.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Bernie |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 5:26:35 PM
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Bernie,
They are not bad but they are heavily skewed towards later/faster bikes because that's what people want to ride in that club.
AHMRA has a slightly older crowd and they still race lots of older bikes.
WERA and AHRMA are both trying to achieve the same thing and that's to have groups of bikes of similar performance representing different eras. They are less year specific for all the reasons people here recognize as causing issues.
They still allow people to cherry pick though. Some racers pick the bike that is most likely to win rather than the old ABC123 they loved as a kid. There will always be cherry pickers, but those rules are a place to start thinking about where to take Historic racing next.
I'd suggest looking at the AMA Mid Ohio rules which I linked in one of these threads.
Stepping outside the old year cut off rules and devising a new set of rules will not be a task for the feint of heart, that's for sure. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 5:32:13 PM
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I love their definition of Vintage lightweight
"Vintage 6 Lightweight
Pre 1990 Air Cooled multi’s up to 600cc.
Pre 1990 Liquid Cooled multi’s up to 490cc
Pre 1990 Air Cooled twins up to 750cc.
Pre 1990 Air Cooled pushrod twins up to 1000cc.
Pre 1990 Liquid Cooled twins up to 650cc.
Pre 1990 Air Cooled 2-stroke multis up to 750cc.
Pre 1990 Liquid Cooled 2-stroke twins up to 410cc. (250cc GP machines must run HW.)
Pre 1990 Singles unlimited. "
And their small capacity class seems a bit big for 125 -200cc
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Vintage 1
Pre 1973 2 stroke singles up to 360cc.
Pre 1973 2 stroke twins up to 250cc.
Pre 1973 OHC up to 360cc.
Among the eligible V1 machines are the following: Honda, all 4-stroke two cylinder street models up to 350cc and XL250/350s; Honda CB 360 regardless of year; Kawasaki 350cc single and S1; Suzuki and Yamaha 250cc street twins." |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2009 : 01:58:34 AM
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John,
WERA never had a 125 class and when the numbers in the 200 class did not pick up, they rolled it into their 250 class and then they moved the close date to 73.
They were seeing an increase in demand for more modern bikes V5 and V6 and too few small old bikes, so they dropped them.
Their focus is on younger guys with newer bikes.
That odd looking mix of bikes is actually more evenly matched than you might imagine and it's fun to watch. Keep in mind that they use the term Vintage to mean more than 10 years old. That is causing them some heartache now with early R6 and R1's reaching that ripe old age.
If you go back to the seventies when we started Historic or Classic racing, the first bike I raced was a 62 T120 and that was in 78, so it was 16 years old. Fast forwards to now and a 16 year old bike would be 1993 and to be honest, a 93 bikes is as outdated compared to modern bikes as the T120 was to the Z1s I raced against (Ok so raced is the wrong word there).
By comparison, those 1990's are almost 20 years old - equivalent to a 1960 when I started. In their own way, WERA rules are as appropriate as MA rules. It's worth thinking about.
There is no one perfect simple formula, but the AHRMA and AMA mid Ohio rules are probably the closest to appropriate IMHO. But I never suggested adopting someone else's rules. What I suggested was looking at what they do and working out a way that that approach might be adapted to Australian conditions.
Changing rules requires an open and honest discussion about what works and what doesn't and a focus on what the objective is.
At this stage it looks like a minority is upset by the status quo and the majority are comfortable to leave things alone. Maybe the answer is that in reality people are happier with what they have, than in making a big change.
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2009 : 10:59:02 AM
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I thought we were supposed to be doing historic racing? The classes were:
Ultralightweight (125)
Lightweight (250)
Junior (350)
Senior (500)
Unlimited |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2009 : 3:57:37 PM
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I made a silly mistake when I stumbled across this site. There wre posts about how the current system doesn't work and how it all unfair, and how Nortons don't get a look in and 125's don't get a decent shot, so I made a couple of suggestions as to different ways of looking at things.
My intent was to throw out some ideas that people could discuss and work out which way they want to go.
What I failed to realize is that I got it completely wrong. No one wants to change a thing or even to talk about what that change might look like. They just want to whinge.
And people wonder why Historic racing is dying. Jeeze Louise.
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2009 : 4:35:54 PM
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It doesn't bother me if the racing is "Historic", "Modern" or a mixture - To me it's the competitiveness of the field that makes for enjoyable racing for riders & spectators. I believe The Motorcycle Sportsmen of Qld are trying "bracket racing" at their Feb 13/14th Morgan Park meeting. Fields are to be based on Qualifying times with further evaluation as racing progresses. It should be fun & enlightening.
It looks like (yet to be confirmed) that they will also be holding the 2010 Qld Historic Championships on May 8/9th which will include P6 & Bears.
Historic bikes belong in museums - historic racers on tracks! |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 12:57:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CB72
[br
What I failed to realize is that I got it completely wrong. No one wants to change a thing or even to talk about what that change might look like. They just want to whinge.
Now you're onto it, son. Remember, it's only a couple of days ago that you sprung into defence mode when I had a swing. John has entertained the AHRMA and WERA rules or offshoots of them as a discussion subject, but they're complex so all you hear in response is the wind whistling. I'm happy to try other class structures, but I'm also happy to race under the existing formats as well, without preoccupation about the inequalities of existing formulae. Again I will point out, those wailing loudest for change DON'T RACE, and so it's really never going to be any more than a discussion....
And Bernie, the HCMC of WA has been running bracket races as an addition to existing formulae for years, and they work well : not only to liven the program up, but also because you're racing with, and therefore interacting with, people outside your normal category, so you meet new sparring partners and make new buddies. Good idea !
Also of course, we had historic night racing on the Wanneroo short circuit a year before they tried it at Qatar in MotoGP....typical FIM, always copying the HCMC of WA....  |
Edited by - GD66 on 06 Dec 2009 01:03:27 AM |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 03:44:36 AM
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Thanks for that input guys.
I should have been a little more careful with my words, but I could not find the EDIT button to correct it after it went. I did not mean to imply that no one cares. Obviously some people do care and want Historic racing to be fun and successful.
I know that Aussies tend to bite hard and can be brutally honest, but no one wants to hang out with people who only express negative opinions. It's too depressing.
Defense mode? I simply made a suggestion that maybe it was time to look at the Objectives and to see if there was another way to make it more fun and more even, so I pointed to US ideas with which I am familiar.
If someone feels the need to attack that approach, then that's their problem not mine. If I sounded defensive, it's probably because I have lived in the US for too long :-) There are a couple of people on this forum that seem to have the maturity to engage in a meaningful discussion, but this is probably not the time or the place.
BTW, how do I edit a post?
Ave a good weekend. I have to go and crank up the furnace in the shop and prep the snow blower.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 1:37:26 PM
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| There is an image of a sheet of paper with a pencil across it. Touch that and the page will move into edit mode. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 2:23:11 PM
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I don't envy you at all. Furnace and snow blower indeed.
Where are you, North East up near the Canadian border?
I'm shivering just thinking about it.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 4:19:52 PM
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40 miles North of Chicago - one of the world's great cities. It just isn't Melbourne |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 09:31:02 AM
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Just about where my imagination put you.
I have a friend who lives a bit further north, in Canada, and she sends me photos that make me shiver just looking at them.
Brrrrrrr |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 10:47:54 AM
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What I failed to realize is that I got it completely wrong. No one wants to change a thing or even to talk about what that change might look like. They just want to whinge.
I've made a lot of comments on this subject which might be construed as 'whinging'. If you are talking about 'CHANGE' perhaps you might explain how it can be achieved? I've written to MA proposing change, and I've been on about it forever. The simple fact is that most historic events in Victoria are organised by the sidecar racers in HMRAV, and they don't listen! I think it's time to give up and find another outlet for my energies! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 1:12:01 PM
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Most committee people at the HMRAV are sidecars because the others dont want to help!
We do listen take the following ideas that have been introduced by those cursed sidecar blokes;
- Class C solos, Indian s and Harley 750 side valves.
- 600cc F/E cut off for solos
- 125 promotion
- 350 support
- separation of 350 /500 Classic solos
- 750 pushrod class not supported after 2 years by riders
- Adoption of methanol fuel labels provided by this site.
- creation of a Health and safety policy, the first in Australia
- appointment of a safety officer at meetings
- attraction of crowds to meetings
- Climate change for rain free weekends
- Films at race meetings
- Sidecar riders lounge room
- Sidecar teams gathering
- Increased sidecar numbers by 700% in 3 years. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 Dec 2009 2:55:19 PM |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 2:24:14 PM
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Gee Al,
So you're giving up and going away. Right. I doubt if you can. I doubt you can resist posting on this forum for a month let alone give it away. What would we do without you, your alter ego or your kindred spirit banging on about all the sports woes. Have you really finally figured out that you are wrong and the vast majority of historic competitors and fans are happy with the present situation.
Also Victoria historic racing is better off because of people like the HMRAV committee. They work, they give, they cop rubbish from whingers like you and keep coming back to keep the sport going.
I say well done to them and good riddance to you. |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 3:08:44 PM
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Allen,
The thing about change is that it's hard to create the momentum.There are many ways to do it and timing of course is everything.
One approach is to talk to people who you think share you interest. Forget trying to influence the decision makers or blocks right from teh get go. That's too hard.
Bounce you ideas off a few people and then, based on their input, try to spread the word slowly at first and people will pick up on it. try to incorporate other people's ideas and then start the publicity campaign of talking to anyone who will listen.
All I have tried to do is to suggest ideas for people to kick around. I have no agenda other than keeping Historic racing around and healthy. the ideas I suggested are just for discussion. Sometimes it's hard to express an idea and I often find it easier to throw something out and let people kick it around. Sometimes it helps them to see that what they have is the best compromise, but often it helps them to work out what would work better than the status quo or the ideas I threw out.
When posties were introduced, it took quite a while of working with people to promote the idea and to allay fears, and that was not my idea either. I just thought it was a good idea and created publicity through teh HMRAV newsletter which i used to publish at the time.
So you could for example be working with people on the board who ride solos or write articles for the newsletter.
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 3:14:48 PM
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Hey Historic Dave,
I sense your frustration or animosity, but I'm unsure as to whether you are trying to goad AC into following through or if you are just being obnoxious.
There is no need for that sort of personal attack, whether you feel it's justified or not.
How about less flaming and more constructive criticism. 
A good way to look at this is to ask yourself if you are part of the Solution of just part of the problem. Enough said. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 3:15:10 PM
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| Glen dane is our newsletter editor for the HMRAV and feel free to send him anything you want published. I can say if 10 people came to us and asked for a change we would consider it |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 3:20:39 PM
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Please let's not sink into character assassination and childish slanging matches.
We are trying to improve things here, so let's not get sidetracked.
All we want to do is get more bikes on the grid.
The discussion is supposed to be about how we can achieve that outcome.
Constructive offerings only please.
We have finally decided that we should defer making a decision until we have decided if we should actually make a decision.
Come on people, surely someone can offer something constructive???????????? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 02:47:30 AM
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Pre 68 200cc 4 stroke
What was the 1969 250cc fourstroke which you are trying to exclude from the suggested 200cc class? Why wouldn't you simply run a 250cc class with a capacity penalty for twostrokes? In the olden days which 'historic' racing is supposed to be about, the 250cc class was known as the 'lightweight'! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 02:54:05 AM
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Class C solos, Indian s and Harley 750 side valves.
- 600cc F/E cut off for solos
- 125 promotion
- 350 support
- separation of 350 /500 Classic solos
- 750 pushrod class not supported after 2 years by riders
- Adoption of methanol fuel labels provided by this site.
- creation of a Health and safety policy, the first in Australia
- appointment of a safety officer at meetings
- attraction of crowds to meetings
- Climate change for rain free weekends
- Films at race meetings
- Sidecar riders lounge room
- Sidecar teams gathering
- Increased sidecar numbers by 700% in 3 years.
I agree that is an impressive list of achievements. Was the 750cc pushrod class 'cross period', what was the cutoff date? were the 750cc Ducatis excluded, as well as XS Yamahas. Why wasn't it simply 'Formula 750'? with a penalty for two strokes, or two strokes excluded? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 09:47:05 AM
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If the two strokes had push rods they could enter.
Because once again the HMRAV was ahead of the pack, Formula 750 was not promulgated at the time.
There are no exclusions in the pushrod class, stop looking for traps please.
XS yammys and Dukes dont have push rods from memory.
The category was established to create an opportunity for more trophies and an opportunity for a few more older bikes to come out.
Cut off dates fitted with the existing eras for ease of management.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 08 Dec 2009 09:49:39 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 1:47:44 PM
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The only problem I see is the push rod part.
Perhaps if it was simply a 750cc 4 stroke class it would have got up. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 2:00:26 PM
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| It was aimed at the older P3 areana and I think there were just not enough blokes wanting to get 750cc machines out. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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