fast suzuki you have caused me to develop a restraint not previously known to mankind. Just wait till I finish the survey of spectators preferences. It may cost me many mars bars to get the result I want!!!
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
The reason I mentioned 'special interest groups' is that I'm concerned that the 'rules' for the Historic Superbikes might end up as silly as the rules for the rest of historic bike racing. I wonder whether it's advisable to leave the rulemaking to MA historic commissions? I wonder whether the interests of the actual riders will be appropriately represented as well as that of potential promoters and sponsors? I'd point out that the most successful class in car racing in Australia is AVESCO (V8 Supercars), and I believe it arose out of a 'special interest group'! Another successful class in car racing is the HQ Holden guys (why would you race a HQ Holden?). The class is very competitive, pulls a crowd, and gets a lot of starts at race meetings. The permitted mods specify the type of pickup in the fuel tank, and the thickness of spacers under the springs. Seems absurd to me but that's w hat the drivers in the class want the rules to be!
Fast suzzy. I was talking about ensuring spectators agreed they wanted more sidecar races.
AS for the Historic superbikes, I feel I have laid out a suitable plan having spoken to people involved in the past series. This is not an MA or MV thing at the moment although I did send a note to MA which I will follow up with more info when I start to see action worthy of seeking assistance with date allocation. If anything it is a pet project I presented to the Vic. Historic Man. Comm. as another part of promoting Historic Racing generally.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
Buggered if I know. the rules set out in my discussion specify current machine within the existing P4 and P5 specifications. Judging by the lack of interest by a greater group I can see that the idea will never get beyond these web pages. But I am hopeful. At this stage my only interset is to get solo bikes fitting the original concept detailed at tracks within the series. The way I see it Alan, too much time can be spent fidding the concept whilst nothing is done to promote the idea.
I ask, lets see if there is any action with exiting machines berfore we cook the books.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
John, as one of those existing bikes (or at least a couple at this stage) I ask why we have to change rules for another series? I can remember the bull**** that occurred when the Aussie Land Series started and one of our A graders who ran a race team got his hand on factory bits that gave him a very clear advantage over the other competitors. Nothing personal on the sidecar front John, I was V.P of a club that represented s/cars and my views haven't changed.
Fast Suzzy, I dont quite understand you comment about existing bikes is there a word missing? I dont belive I am trying to change any rules. Correct me if I am wrong. My idea involves getting machines that comply with the current P4 or P5 eligibility and fit the Superbike criteria, within the overall current "Historic Range" for simplicity. Can I ask, are you trying to race 1983 machines against 1979 machines? The plan is to encourage the earlier Superbikes to have a go, not provide a new series beyond 1980 to run with pre - 1980 bikes. Is that what you are confused about, perhaps give me a call on 03 9888 4387.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
John, I question you use of the term 'superbike criteria'. I suggest that any bike already eligible for historic racing should be eligible for the Historic Superbike Series. In addition other (later) machines should also be admitted subject to the determination of an eligibility panel using accepted and documented guidelines. I cannot see why an1983 Katana couldn't run along with a 1980 GSX1100? Why a 1983 VF750 Honda couldn't compete? Why an FJ1100 Yamaha couldn't compete? I suggest the objective should be to GROW the sport, rather than find ways to keep people out!!!
Alan, one reason we dont have any bikes invoved yet may be because of all the questions about other matters.
Final comment about this proposal. I drew up a set of criteria because nobody else had. I drew the line in the sand as I have explained at 1980, so we can race within normal Historic classes at Historic bike meetings. Remember I am trying to promote Historic racing as a whole and plan to use the popularity of Superbike racing to help.
I am not involved with bikes beyond 1980 and they are capable of organising their own affairs. Personally I dont feel it would be good competition to have a 1983 bike against an earlier say, 1978 machine. Historic racing currently involves older bikes, not pre moderns.
There is no need to talk anymore about dates, the explanation is clear, the intension is clear and there are alternatives for later model bikes to race. Everybody is covered.
So lets try and get bikes invoilved for this pre 1981 series and go racing.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
Is there a copy of the rules for the Historic Superbike Series on this web site? What provision has been made for the bikes of international (and Australian) riders that don't fully comply with P5 or P4? Who are the sponsors and promoters for the series?
For $7,500 this would be a good way to go racing in P5!....
That's a really nice Eddie Lawson Replica for sure, but it is a *1983* model bike, and does not conform to current Historic regs for P5. Having said that, it wouldn't be too hard to get a log book, because that machine is 'essentially' exactly the same as a 1980 Z1000J1, with a few minor detail exceptions.
Alan - I understand completely what you are saying about using machines from a period that is only 2 or 3 years after the P5 cut-off, but the whole point of using a current 'standard' of eligible P5 machines would reduce any eligibility issues - which have created a lot of problems in the past - I think John's idea of staying consistent with current P5 models is a good way of avoiding any initial eligibility issues, if this series gets off the ground. It may well be that machines from a later period could be admitted if this is something that the competitors/organisers want ??
John - The term 'pre-modern' cannot really by applied to most UJM's from the early 80's - although this was a time of great flux and improvement within all classes, the reality is that a 1983 Eddie Lawson Replica is still a big twin-shock air-cooled across-the-frame Four. Same deal with the early-model Katana's.
This idea for a Historic Superbike Series needs more exposure outside this forum. I think its a great idea, but needs to be pushed into mainstream motorcycling in order to get the sort of responses you are looking for.
cheers Dave
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....."
Alan, from 17 April on this site "Just the same as Period 5 unlimited rules. But the Superbikes were the actual bikes that roared in the late 1970's. The concept I am proposing is to retain the existing rules but to promote the Unlimited P5 bikes within a special challenge, just as it happened in the true period."
dave, I think your are correct and I have put it on the PCRA site also, but there is notmuch comment. I admit I thought a lot of people read this site.
Alan, I am deliberately staying within the current Historic range to make it easier for all. Anyway, we all know the later bikes had much better engines and they would just wipe out the early machines. It may be possibble over time to have years vs years.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
John, Whether the bike is P5 or P6 you will still have eligibility issues which affect machine competitiveness. I suggest there would be major advantage in allowing those post 1980 machines which are inherently similar to P5 machines , to compete. You probably haven't noticed however it's not easy to buy a decent GSX1100 or Z900 these days, and if you could you'd do better to restore it. I suggest that any move which makes it easier to get into historic racing, is a good thing, as long as it doesn't destroy the intent. The questions are then - what is the intent of Historic Superbike Series? Will it draw riders away from other types of racing? (You can buy a new naked R6 for about $7000, and get a really good competitive ride with plenty of spares and support).
I have kept out of this topic as it doesnt hold a great deal of interest to me personally but I think its time I had my two bobs worth. Johns original concept was and still is a sound idea, he asked for support for his concept not for everyone to push their own barrow and reinvent the wheel. Surely the best that anyone can do is to support the original idea try it out and then make any modifications to the cut of dates or whatever may be felt necessary after a reasonable trial. Using Johns concept only requires the amalgamation of P4 and P5 bikes of a particular capacity and nothing else. All that is needed is a promoter to include the class in a meeting give it a lot of publicity and see what happens. There would normally be enough eligible bikes at a decent size meeting anyway. Food for thought John, why not trisl the idea at the Southern Classic this year. Start the publicity now and give it a shot. I wish you luck and hope that some of the ideas people on this site will help you out.
John, I have another thought for you. I was extreme ly impressed with the Historic Superbikes at this year's Phillip Island Meeting. The sight of Phillis Guest and Korp storming down the front straight was to say the least, very inspiring. As you know I was involved in running the infamous Championships at Winton in 2004, and during this contacted Phillis about a comeback into historic racing. I also spoke to Wally Campbell, who asked when P6 would ever get going. He has the old VF750 which was sponsored by Honda and won a Six Hour in 1983 which he wants to race again. Wouldn't it be interesting to see whether he can beat the Poms or even Phillis on it? How about making an exception and issuing an ivite for him to ride at Phillip Island on it, next year? Perhaps the crowd might grow by the same amount it did when Phillis started riding again?
I also spoke to Wally Campbell, who asked when P6 would ever get going. He has the old VF750 which was sponsored by Honda and won a Six Hour in 1983 which he wants to race again. Wouldn't it be interesting to see whether he can beat the Poms or even Phillis on it?
On a production 6 Hour VF750? - He MUST be getting faster as he gets older (like me! )
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen
Can I suggest, tongue in cheek; a production bike from that era was nothing!!! like what was available for the road, I would rather see him on a RSC Honda CB750/1000. At least it would be of the period.I know of several riders from the period who are interested in a ride, some have even got there old bikes. P.I this year will be big.
Racing a VF750 for six hours is a bit different to running it in a six lap sprint. If you have a look at the DVDs of the 1983 Six Hour I sent John, you'll see just how consistently good Wally actually was back then. I don't believe a VF 750 could beat a GPZ900 in a short race. What I've said earlier is that any post 1980 bike allowed to run, should be conventionally air cooled. I still believe that the Forgotten Era International Challenge is the best thing since sliced bread! I believe Wally would add a lot of interest.
I suggest we are exactly where we were years ago, when HMRAV club members voted to support only machines made before 1962! And where we were when people tried to get Forgotten Era up and running. TIME MOVES ON, ARE YOU MOVING WITH IT? I suggest it should be about getting more competitors into historic racing, not worrying about who's likely to beat who. You don't have any problem with letting Period 4 bikes run, the like of which NEVER, EVER EXISTED!!!!! Incidently does the Ken Horner Vincent have a logbook for that frame? I'm not getting vindictive but you guys seem to let bikes run which suit yourselves, not what is decided by the democratic process!
John - discussions about what constitutes an "historic" bike for an 'Historic' series - how is that not on topic ?
Acotrel - the CB750/1000 was probably a reference (maybe), to the Endurance racing RCB Honda's which did so well in World Endurance Racing during the late 70's, and indeed won the WEC in 1980. At least thats my take on the reference to these bikes. To the best of my knowledge, Honda named the CB900 the "Bol'dor" as a mark of respect to the twin-cam RCB Hondas which had done so well in the endurance event of that very name, over a number of years from about 1976 or thereabouts...
Times do move on, no doubt about it. NSW PCRA have seen the light and introduced a New Era class for *exactly* the type of bikes you refer to - Wally's VFR etc. But in respect of the original idea to run a 'Historic Superbike Series', the concept of using current bikes and rules that reflect Superbike racing during the 70's, as per P4 and P5 specifications, is far better, at least to get things moving.
There should be no reason why the Historic Superbike concept could not include a 'Legends' event (that would include later-year models up to a pre-determined cut-off - say 1986) at a selected Round -say the Island Classic (indeed it may be required if the Poms do a runner and don't return next year...) - This would allow punters to watch the 'heroes' of the 80's belting around on the mid-80's bikes, while the whole series (and points) would remain open only to regular series competitors on the P4 and P5 bikes - who of course could also race in the 'Legends' event if they wanted to (you may need 115% qualifying in this case ;-)
Just some thoughts on the whole thing....
cheers Dave
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....."
Alan a couple of things. the democratic sysytem provides for club members to vote on the matters they want. There has been no push for New Era in Vic at the moment. So you cannot claim the club is undemocratic. Join the club and put a case. As for New Era I can say Hartwell and Preston are playing with them at the moment and that seems to suit them. Gosling thanks for the comments. At the moment it is easier for me to get "Historic Only " bikes going because that is what happens in Vic. If it gets up we can certainly work to get more involvement, but until we get a starting point, ie bikes in a series it is no good expanding the range beyond what teh HMRAV can promote. I need to remind everybody, this idea is not coming from the HMRAV, it comes from myself as a member of the Historic management Committee. the HMRAV have agreed to include an Historic Suerbike Series overlaid over an existing meeting.
When we get other events taking the concept on, we can expand it. But dont forget I work with the Historics uptoie. 1980 machines. I will chat again with Fast Suzzy about a few issues, but essentially the "Historic Superbike" machines will be identified by the HSB committee, not others trying to elbow in.
Also, if you go back to the start of the discussion you will see the original reason for the idea. We have registered the name and hope to make it work for racers with an eye on the original concept.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
Hey John, if you would like a website setup for it, I have the perfect domain name to use and can setup a site for it if you want: You must be logged in to see this link.
I already have the domain name and it currently pushes all users back to this site, but can take out the redirection and put in a user friendly (professional looking) site to help promote..
John, great to talk on the phone the other day. The concept is sound when based on existing bikes that 'replicate the period'.The problem appears when people start 'tweaking the rules'to let machines that just miss out or specials that are based upon machinery of the period. If it is true about the Poms, now is the time to get this series off the ground.
David, I will take up the offer of a web site. can we talk either over the phone or with emails about the layout or template. I figure some history ti explain the why-foresof the idea, some photos of the styles and even some profiles gleaned from old magazines so people get to see the concept. We will need to recognise any sponsors and determine a commercial arrangement for the web site. Perhaps even a forum to promote the event and encourgae discussion about potential events we could go to and of course a results page. I can say the sponsors I had have run a mile after seeing the arguments we had about later model bikes, it was the same reaction I saw when I discussed cars at a hill climb at Broadford. the overall effect was to show how divided we can be.
I would be happy to see opinions about a potentiual web site from others interested.
John Daley Sidecar #68 ' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter."
Topic Locked
Posted - 05 Jul 2007 : 7:05:51 PM
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