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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2007 : 09:20:45 AM
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I suggest we need BOTH 750 and unlimited classes of Historic Superbikes. Jap 750s from the 70s and early 80s have always been cheaper than the bigger bikes, and the earlier British bikes were rarely over 750cc capacity. I just hope that 'the rules' don't get over-specified. The objective should be to get people involved -not deter them!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2007 : 4:10:52 PM
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| Alan, I'm with you on this. An up to 750cc class should open it up to bikes that otherwise would be left in sheds. We will need to ensure that the rules are pretty elastic to avoid all the current pettyfogging that exists over authenticity. Given that race bikes have always been developing it is very hard to take a slice out of time and say that only bikes that appear in that slice are authentic. I hope that if we concentrate on the spirit of the idea we should be able to get some interest. So, I guess we now need to see who we can interest. Graeme Muir has recently indicated that he would like to ride again but he is in Queensland and doesn't have a bike. I will ask around as the opportunities arise but I think that we should all pull together to get this going. John F |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2007 : 4:47:48 PM
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Can we focus on getting things going now. I am getting giddy!
I need names of riders for research or rider profiles nothing else please at this time.
All the argument about 750 etc is a waste they were mostly big bore. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 02 Aug 2007 5:02:41 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 7:35:46 PM
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John, The 750 class mightn't be of much interest to you,however I suggest it depends whether you want ANY British bikes involved, smaller Ducatis, Moto Guzzis etc, and an awful lot of cheap japanese 750s. What does it matter if half the 'Superbike' races' are for 750s, if it gets guys into historic racing reasonably cheaply?
I suggest the whole thing depends on 'critical mass'. If you can get four races at every meeting regardless, with grids full of Superbikes, we must get a spectator following, particularly if a lot of the competitors are 'name riders'. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 7:41:22 PM
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| JohnF. Authenticity should be a minor problem with Historic Superbikes! Most were converted street bikes, A few had trick frames - the Harris, Egli, Rickman, Moto Martin, Bimota etc. It should be easy to control the authenticity aspect. All that needs to be done is to require evidence that the frame isn't a new creation (should be at least a replica of SOMETHING THAT EXISTED), and the rest is typical of the late 70s/early 80s!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 7:44:04 PM
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| If we were smart, we'd all be racing copies of Scott Webster's Moto Martin! It would have to be the most AUTHENTIC 'historic superbike' racing today!! It's an absolutely beautiful bike!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 9:35:04 PM
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I need names to research rider profiles.
We are just going around in circles and we have no list of riders let alone a comprehensive one.
I will be speaking with Mick Hone again in a few days to get the facts about the machines, then we can move on from there. But dont forget we are overlaying this concept over existing meetings with existing races, there will be no grid of "only superbikes" alone. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 03 Aug 2007 9:37:28 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2007 : 09:39:39 AM
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All points noted. What we have is the current P4/P5 unlimited field plus whatever can be added. Has anyone got programmes from the 70s? They would give the best indication of who rode what and the start of a list of names to contact. Jim Scaysbrook would be worth talking to. I will keep working on it. Cheers, John F. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2007 : 10:02:44 AM
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Not every bike is eligible.
The original Superbikes had Road based frames not race frames and in the HSB series I will be pushing to maintain that point. Special frames etc will ruin the true aspect of HSB.
Also, I am getting feedback that Honda 4's did not race as superbikes / improved touers in the series I am trying to replicate, but Kwaka 9's were on the grid, so it maybe that we will not admit Honda 4's to the HSB series at all.
A basic tenent of my idea is to be as close to Historic reality as possible, otherwise it is just an excercise in flagulation.
I am not at all interested in having unrepresentative machines in the series because it will have no special factor at all about it.
As for 750's I am still researching, but there now is a 750 class and maybe its time for riders to pull their fingers out and start competing anyway.
I amstill looking for the dimensions of the number board at the front and I had interesting feedback about a possible handling issue with the large flat number boards. But Rex W. has explained that he runs a large number board and is sure handling issues are unrelated to a flat number board.
Riders have to accept that they will be invited to ride in this series and get any benmefits that arise if they accept, I never intended it to be open slather with a mish mash of bikes.So if riders dont like the final proposal they dont accept the invite and can still race independantly of the HSB series.
Benefits will only go to those who eventually support the series fully. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2007 : 11:27:15 AM
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I Have followed tis thread with a great deal of interest and have the concern that this is just doing laps at present (going in circles to the uninitiated). John I suggest you actually formulate a set of rules canvas the clubs and riders and gauge the support, if there seems to be enough interest go ahead and include them in a race meet, if not move on to something more exciting like sidecar racing. The last was a joke. Seriously though the side issues the keep cropping up are detracting from the main issues and are preventing forward progress. Keep the side issues to the other thread and focus on rules, format etc on this thread.
Just a few thoughts from an interested sidecar racer.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 12:04:28 AM
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I have tracked down these names;
Andrew Johnson
Grahame Crosby
Rob Phillis
Mick Cole
Dennis Neale
Jim Budd
Wayne Gardiner
Scott Stephens
John Kaiser
Dale Topp
Jeff Tyne
Mal Campbell
Mick Hone
Greg Pretty
Tony Hatton
Allan Decker.
Glen Taylor
Roy Dennison
Any info on these blokes would be most welcome |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 10 Aug 2007 10:23:16 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 08:20:12 AM
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| John, I suggest Alan Warner's comment has a lot going for it. Your previous on this forum expressed ideas about the types of bikes that should be excluded. I suggest we should concentrate more on the types of machines we want to ENCOURAGE into the series. My questions are - has anyone/group yet developed a draft set of rules for the 'historic superbike' class? Who is, or will be working on this? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 08:27:52 AM
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| John, I suggest the specification for historic superbikes should be - any four stroke aircooled motorcycle of capacity between 500 and 1300cc with a maximum of five speeds in the gearbox. Forget trick frames and numberplate issues. You simply cannot recreate history. Even the cutoff date isn't really important. The type of machine I described was only really made in numbers up to about 1983. I suggest the simpler we make the machine specification for this class the more attractive it will be! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 09:22:58 AM
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The rules are not important at the moment, thats why they are not published.
The important matter for me is to get information about the riders etc and this is required before we start promoting to the public.
This whole project is about promotion to attract more spectators, that is why we are trying to recreate history. The HMC will be the final arbiter about all matters because they are the ones putting the effort in to get it going, sugestions will be listened too and decisions made to fit the promotion and historical criteria.
It could be the whole plan does not move if it becomes too bogged down, I have better things to do, but at the moment the enthusiasim is still about.
ACTUAL HISTORICAL INFORMATION
I had a chat with Mick Hone today.
He was involved from the start.
It commenced as races beyond Production racing and was called a variety of names, registered / improved touring, depending on which club or state run a race.
It started about 1976 and in 1977 they held a Superbike race at Bathurst for the first time and it was in 1979 that a committee was formed to create rules for Australia. At the time the English had their Formula 1, the Yanks had different rules and Australia had a mixture.
The first Championship in Australia was the Victorian Sueprbike Championship won by Andrew Johnson in 1979. championship AJ was the first winner.
The Australian rules specified unlimited motor in 1979, and it switched to 1100cc in 1982,the two sprint races in the day format was established in 1979.
The driving principle was for somebody to be able to idea was to buy, alter and race a machine and actually win the event. Factories tried to enter factory bikes but they were banned because they did not fit the critria.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 10 Aug 2007 10:38:09 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 09:43:25 AM
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| Hi guys, it seems that to progress we have to go beyond the current 1980 cut off date. I suggest that Alan C's idea of eligible bikes is as good as we're going to get for a starting point. Until we decide on which bikes we are looking for we can't go ahead. So let's make a decision now. I have contact numbers for A.J and Tony Hatton, Robbie is already in, Graeme Muir is a remote possibility, I will talk to him. Who has contact with other potential starters? Left, right, left right we are moving. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 10:03:54 AM
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| Can I suggest that we create a plan so that we can move forward. 1/. Decide the type of bikes that are eligible. 2/. Approach potential riders to see who is interested. 3/. Set a target date for the first event. Cheers, John (A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple.) The gospel according to John F. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 10:36:20 AM
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The You must be logged in to see this link. web site has the rules;
The names of people who raced in the early days I gleaned finally today.
The cut off date has to be 1980 so the plan can overlay the HMRAV historic meetings at the moment. There should be ample bikes available to fit the eligibility becuase some earlier versions of 1977 and 78 machines were used.
The Southern Classic is the date I have set in mind to try and start by, with an attempt perhpas at the National titles but that does cause permit issues. Otherwise it will straddle Vic races at the Island, Broadford and Winton at the start.
Since promotion to the public is a big part I am chasing historical data about the listed riders prior to the web site going public so there is an explanation of what happenned and why we are trying to reproduce it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 6:40:55 PM
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| As soon as you send me the data John, I will put it in place on the site. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 10:18:53 PM
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Gees you've missed a few off your list John !
How about :
Alan Decker - Honda RSC1062 (factory bike not eligible for HSB)
Rod Cox - Honda CB900FA
Ron Boulden - Yamaha XS1100G
Gary Thomas - Suzuki GSX1100
Mick Cork - Kawasaki Z1R
Hilton Steele - Honda CBX1000
Wayne Clark - Suzuki GS750
Vaughan Coburn - Honda CBX1000
Alan & Emmanuel Blanco - Kawasaki Z1R
Roy Denison - Kawasaki Z900
Ross Clark - Honda CB900FA
Roger Heyes - Honda CB900FA
John Pace - Honda CB900FA
Steve Trinder - Suzuki GS1000
Len Willing - Kawasaki H2750
Murray Sayle - Kawaskai H2 750
These blokes all raced at the Coca-Cola 800 on March 2 1980 at Oran Park. I can't believe you left all these well-known racers off your list !
another couple just for good measure
Jeff Sayle
John Warrian
Bill Horsman
Ginger Molloy
Geoff Perry
Rob Madden
Joe Eastmure
that will do for the moment.... |
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
Edited by - Gosling1 on 06 Aug 2007 10:38:45 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 08:34:02 AM
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| Have we had a look at the GCRs for 1981 yet? The zenith for historic superbikes occurred about then. I understand why John wants to keep the cutoff date at 1980, I have no real problem with that. However the rules of 1981 should be looked at if we're going to do this thing properly! (I had a copy somewhere but can't find it.) MIck's comments were very interesting. You should also have a talk to Wally Campbell, John. He and Robbie and Wayne Gardner, were the big stars back then! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 09:11:18 AM
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Dave, I am as capable of mistakes as anybody else, I have had no interest in solos in the past and thus I have no data base to draw from.
That is why I asked for help,I reckon I did a pretty good job for a start anyway.
But thanks for your additional help.
A couple of questions though, is Mick Cork actually Mick Cole? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 1:57:25 PM
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My research is coming up with the Coca -Cola 800 as being a Production race, not a Superbike event.
amendment 8.00 pm Tuesday ; Entire were open to 1300cc Prototypes, upto 1300cc and upto 800cc Production and FIM TT Formula One bikes. Some of these entrants were on Superbikes coming under prototype machine with Road based frames. The fact is not all the riders were on Superbikes and in fact superbikes were not listed separately.
RESULTS OF THAT RACE
Mick Cole- Alan Decker Honda RSC 1062cc
Rodney Cox - Malcolm Campbell Honda CB900FA [ Production}
Ron Boulden - Rick Walden Yamaha XS1100G also Production class.
Notable entries which failed for a variety of reasons were; Gregg Hansford and Jim Budd Kawasaki Z1000SR, Ken BLade- Dennis Neale Honda RCS1062, Wayne Gardiner- Moriwaki Kawasaki.
The basis of all Superbike " Official " events were improved touring bikes and the two sprint races in a day was a difference.
So entrants to a Production event may not have been riding Superbikes of the day, but production bikes. The difference being that Superbikes could be modified and factory bikes were not permitted in Superbike racing. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 Aug 2007 8:32:15 PM |
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Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 9:00:41 PM
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Mick Cork is actually Michael Cork, he was partnered with Rick Davidson for this event on the Kawasaki. Mike Cole was partnered with Alan Decker on the winning RSC1062 - which was a factory 'supported' bike entered in this event. The Coca Cola 800 was the first true endurance race held in Australia. The Z1000SR of Gregg Hansford / Jim Budd finished 8th, completing 289 laps. This was also a 'factory' bike.
This was the infamous meeting where Murray Sayle's H2 750 caught fire - fuel had settled on the top of the crankcases, and a loose exhaust saw flames set the fuel on fire, which then spread to the carbies......unfortunately the mighty H2 had to retire from the event.
The only European machine entered in this event was the NCR860 Ducati of Dave Robbins / Wayne Gardiner. It finished 9th, only 1 lap down on the Hansford/Budd Kawasaki.
I have one good B&W photo of Alan Blanco on the Cyclecraft Betric Racing Z1R, and it looks *exactly* the same as Peter Guests current Z1R - for what its worth, Guesty's Z1R is a perfect example of a current P5 bike that would suit the HSB format * to a tee *.....
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".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 10:30:17 PM
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| I belive you guys are getting too concerned a bout possiblt 'cheaters'. If the class is restricted to air cooled four strokes with 5 speed gearboxes, and if obviously 'modern' mods such as upside down forks are not permitted , what can anyone do to 'cheat'? The only remaining issue is then whether 'trick' frames are permitted and this becomes a matter of authenticity. The question is - would you really want to exclude beautiful bikes such as Scott Webster's or Rudy Skenk's Moto Martin or a McIntosh Suzuki from this class? The Moto Martin is typical of a lot of European endurance racers of the 70s. It would have to be the most 'authentic' machine at most historic meetings!!!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 10:59:42 PM
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Alan, YES, they were always excluded from Superbikes in the day and they still will, along with TZ750's and RG500's.
Dont forget they can race in the P5 races anyway.
When are people going to realise that this scheme is designed to show real Superbikes from the 70's so that modern Superbike fans can see where it all came from. It is not designed to another open slather all P5 solo race. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 08:27:37 AM
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John, I suggest we need to cater for authentic european bikes while writing the class specs. I agree with what you say about superbikes in Australia. However I wouldn't like to see any large capacity four stroke/four cylinder bikes excluded simply because the frame is different to what was raced here back then.
I suggest that any 'exclusions' should be well thrashed out at the outset, we need to get people involved, not deter them! I suggest that 'if it's authentic and fits our major objectives, let it race'! The process of getting this class going must be democratic or it might fail! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 09:59:30 AM
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| Greetings people. John D. if I understand this concept correctly it is for production road bikes that have been prepared to conform with current rules i.e. lights, mirrors, stands etc. removed but which otherwise look like road bikes. To have original dual seats and original handlebar style (no clip ons). Is this correct? Cheers, John F. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 9:48:41 PM
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Alan, my attitude is that if we allow any tom. dick or harry and their hot bike in, how are we going to honor the basic princile of the idea to showcase the original Superbikes. Its not often something starts in Victoria and spreads to Australia and then the world.
Just as speedway started in Australia and few would know that, my idea is to bang on about the origins of Superbike racing and thats why Tom and hios mates can very capably ride against the Superbikes, but not pretend they are one.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 9:55:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john feakes
Greetings people. John D. if I understand this concept correctly it is for production road bikes that have been prepared to conform with current rules i.e. lights, mirrors, stands etc. removed but which otherwise look like road bikes. To have original dual seats and original handlebar style (no clip ons). Is this correct? Cheers, John F.
thats pretty much the right take I believe. It would basically replicate the 'Improved Production' events of the late 70's. I have posted an example of how a set of eligibility rules for this class might look, on the PCRA forum. It is a copy of the proposed AHMRA rules for 'Vintage Superbike', from back in 2002. I think it is a pretty close representation of the type of machines that John is looking for in the HSB series. It includes rules about 'no clipons', standard seats, original bodywork etc etc, and is worth a read.
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".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 11:33:28 PM
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Dave, the sugestions you mentioned are in fact written into the draft rules I am writing.
I have been writing so much just to get people thinking about the concept that I have forgotten about that aspect.
The draft rules are on the special site we have set up but I dont want to go public with the site until I have more details of the early riders and some rider profiles.
It is a much bigger job to get finished than I realised at the start.
Since my promotion is aimed at the public I felt historical information was a very important part of the promotion rather than trying to get bikes lined up at the moment.
Unfortunatley I finished up joining in discussions that may be settled when the whole site is complete.
I was not aware of the Vintage superbike matter you spoke of I shall look into that soon.
But in the mean time, rider profiles would be nice, each one is taking about 30 minutes and I may need to trim them just to get things moving along.
I will admit I have been surprised about the amount and anguish of the discussion but I hope when I have finished the site people will settle down. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 09 Aug 2007 10:58:31 AM |
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