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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 1:59:20 PM
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Well Well, it was interesting to get home at lunchtime and to relax over the new Manual of Motorcycle Sport and in particular the rules relating to Historic Racing.
As predicted in other postings, rule 16.2.0.1 has been amended to change the eligibility rules and allow bikes until 31 December 1982. Suzuki Katanas are now in as are Suzuki RG 500 Mk VI bikes.
This now means a number of mods not previously available will suddenly be allowed as they existed in the extra time span - possibly floating discs apart from those found on the early Suzuki Racers.
On the down side, a number of bikes that previously were competitive will now struggle in the new climate
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 3:43:46 PM
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Is this a good move or one that has not been thought through thoroughly?
See if you can say that three times without stuffing it up.
How many people will be adversely affected by this move and who stands to gain? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2009 : 4:29:53 PM
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I suggest there are not a lot who gain and a lot who edge back a bit from the pointy end.
But John, we can't say its cheating, after all its all within the rules. As they say Governing bodies are there to make what is currently illegal, legal. That seems to be what has happened here.
So get ready for the argument about carbies, discs etc, etc. All over again, just as it was getting settled.
By the way, I believe the arguments for the change were allegedly to bring us into line with overseas. I would just like to understand which brand of Overseas (US (West coast or East Coast), British (CMRC or whatever), French, German, Scandinavian, NZ, Canadian to name a few) and if we are going to do that why not introduce a range of other rules from overseas that might conceivably make a beneficial change for the majority.
I am not normally labeled as a conservative but in this case I think the arguments put in support of this are bollox - as the Poms put it. They are only designed to help a few people in the right places, probably so they can expand their business operations. If you want the name of a potential beneficiary, look at the sponsor of the motion at the forum in Sydney, its on the MA web site. It makes one wonder how much due process really occurs at MA. Where is the survey of competitors to back the change. Bet there ain't one, but I could be wrong.
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 01:11:00 AM
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Now, who can find me an RS1000 Honda?
Or better, an NS500 TWO STROKE??
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 07:53:10 AM
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This now means a number of mods not previously available will suddenly be allowed as they existed in the extra time span - possibly floating discs apart from those found on the early Suzuki Racers.
Will the earth now stop turning? The Forgotten Era Challenge at the Island will become even more interesting! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 07:58:42 AM
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Now, who can find me an RS1000 Honda?
Or better, an NS500 TWO STROKE??
Bernie, I'd love to see you do it, especially if you can get up alongside Robbie. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 08:04:24 AM
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| The reality is that the gsx Suzukis already racing are exactly Katanas without the fibreglass. The cylinder heads on them are often the later ones with the small change to the casting. At least the situation will now be more honest. The Katana fibreglass should add at least 20kph to their top speed |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 09:35:44 AM
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| I'm with Bummers on this, I think the Hondas are the go, just Google and see, plenty to buy. Sell the old stuff, ditch the Kats and Kwaks its easy! |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 10:20:05 AM
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I propose a new unlimited class for P5 based on the 31 Dec 1980 closing date as per the 2009 rules (as opposed to the 2010 rules).
In support of this move:-
*This proposed class will assist those who don't have the resources to compete in the new open P5 class
*The proposal continues the implementation of the settled rules as understood at 2009 and will promote stability
*The proposal assists to maintain rider numbers at sustainable levels
*The proposal is complimentary to the 2010 rule as it proposes a subset within the overall period
The new class would be incorporated in the rules in the table at rule 16.2.1.1 and would be known as "Period 5 Formula Forgotten ERA 1980" |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 2:00:30 PM
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Mr Oldkwak,
I haven't seen the printed version of the 2010 MoMs. I knew they changed the date for P5, but did they also change rule 16.93.8 regarding prohibited items for P5.
Not sure if the date change was a wise move, but obviously enough of the states voted it in. But if they didn't also change the other rule it may not have the desired result.
Historic |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 2:54:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Historic
Mr Oldkwak,
I haven't seen the printed version of the 2010 MoMs. I knew they changed the date for P5, but did they also change rule 16.93.8 regarding prohibited items for P5.
Not sure if the date change was a wise move, but obviously enough of the states voted it in. But if they didn't also change the other rule it may not have the desired result.
Historic
I haven't seen the (Historic) MOMS changes in full either. It would be nice to see how the prohibitions have changed. I know about the P5 date extension, side cover covers & that we are still stuck with no additives in our water cooling but not much else.
Has anyone received a "draft" copy yet? |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
Edited by - Bummers on 19 Dec 2009 3:00:47 PM |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2009 : 10:53:29 AM
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| Rather than attempt to replicate them I think I will wait until the mail system allows you to read for your self. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2009 : 11:52:26 AM
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| What was the side cover covers update ? And to which classes does it apply ? All news to me... |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2009 : 12:32:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GD66
What was the side cover covers update ? And to which classes does it apply ? All news to me...
I asked Ross Martin about 4 specific items only from the May 09 Hist. Road Race Commission Meeting report (You must be logged in to see this link.) & got the following answers:
1.P5 has been extended to 31 December 1982.
2.Engine covers for P4 & P5 are in.
3.Some “riding up” in classes will be allowed.
4.Coolant remains as water only.
I guess that now means P4 & P5 bikes will have to conform to 2009 MOMS 15.2.3.4
"All lateral covers/engine cases containing oil and which could be in contact with the ground during a crash, must be protected by a second cover...."
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2009 : 1:13:18 PM
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| Okay, thanks Bernie.Off to the shed.... |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 09:34:24 AM
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| 'riding up' sounds good! Does that mean the oversize CB750s in P4 will now be running in P5? |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 3:37:12 PM
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| Don't get too excited, wait until the rules are read. |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 10:06:37 PM
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I just received my 2010 MOMS today - it says
quote:
16.2.1.2 Competitors are eligible to enter :
a) the capacity & Era class as shown in the machine's logbook and
b) the next capacity class in that Era
Bernie |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 07:28:19 AM
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16.2.1.2 Competitors are eligible to enter :
a) the capacity & Era class as shown in the machine's logbook and
b) the next capacity class in that Era
It's a bit strange that the controlling body specifies what classes a machine can run in, in the log book? I would have thought that would be up to the promoter of the race meeting? There seems to be a continuing commitment to racing in 'periods' which might not be warranted. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 10:12:22 AM
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Era = Sacred Cow.
However, these rules only apply to national championships; clubs are free to run what and how they choose and the clubs are the backbone of the sport.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 4:20:46 PM
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So let me get this clear, i can race my p3 250 in up to 250 races and also enter in p3 350 races,is this right?
Seems a good dea to me ,more bang for your bucks eh. |
125 alliance |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 4:29:59 PM
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| Spot on 99. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 01:23:41 AM
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these rules only apply to national championships; clubs are free to run what and how they choose and the clubs are the backbone of the sport.
So what you are telling me is that the Historic rules in the MOMS are written for the purposes of only ONE meeting per year - the historic championships? Perhaps we'd be better off without the championships, and run an Australian Historic TT and GP capacity based series instead? |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 12:22:01 PM
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| ......sob...... |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 10:20:17 PM
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so does it state in the rule book that this only applys to champs events only?? cannot believe that,so that makes all the other rules variable as well,sorry i do not believe that,if states that in the book it must apply to all events.
I do not have my new book yet so cannot check it ,but sounds very strange if it is a one event rule,,,,,,,,,, |
125 alliance |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 11:09:27 PM
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No it doesn't say that the Rules for Historic road racing only apply for one meeting. Most State historic Champs & other historic major historic events generally run under the same rules but there probably isn't any reason they have to. There again, there is nothing to stop historic bikes running in the various Formula classes that promoters of "modern" events run either. If their riders are game...
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 03:21:14 AM
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| ...and their bikes are fitted with catch trays... |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 07:46:08 AM
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My understanding of the situation is that the F.I.M. controls international meetings(modern only), M.A. controls national meetings here and the clubs are pretty much free to organise their meetings as they choose.
It has never been suggested that ALL rules only apply to national championship meetings, the only rules under discussion here are those that relate to race classes and format.
The difference I see is that it is now possible to win, say, the 350 championship on a 250 and be classified as the 350 champion.
This should boost grid numbers and give the spectator (or 2) more to look at.
Happy new year everyone. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 08:29:07 AM
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| I probably view racing a bit differently to others. It's important to get full grids for every race, if we can. It costs about $6000 per day to hire most circuits, and the grid maximum is often about 50 bikes. What you are paying for is track time, and quality competition? Historically the guys used to ride TZ250s in races against TZ350s, and the fact is that the 250s lasted a bit longer. Ken Blake had the option of riding Walter's TZ750 at Winton, after the first time he always brought the TZ350. So the move to allow people to 'ride up' is not only sensible, it is reminiscent of what actually happened back then. |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 9:43:17 PM
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Yes that was my point any event run under the historic racing set of g.c.r.s will then include the ride up option,,,
I agree is a good move to lift bike numbers in races and spectator interest as there will be more bikes on the track plus we get more rides for our money a win win
Are there any other major changes for 2010 in the new rules?? |
125 alliance |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 11:43:16 PM
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There is the engine cover thing, for P4 & P5...
16.5.3.4 & 16.5.4.5
quote:
All lateral covers/engine cases containing oil which could be in contact with the ground during a crash, must be protected by a second cover made from composite materials, type carbon or Kevlar, or be fitted with heavy duty crash resistant end cases made from solid metal. Plates and/or bars from aluminium or steel are also permitted. All these devises must be designed to be resistant against sudden shocks and must be fixed properly and securely. Bonding alone is not a suitable method of mounting.
I haven't followed how the modern bikes conformed with this ruling last year. What's the easiest way out?
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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