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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
 Posted - 27 May 2010 : 6:29:40 PM
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MA has put up the recent minutes from the last Historic Commission meeting.
I was not aware there was one happening.
Have a look at what may be in store for next year on their site
You must be logged in to see this link.
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Edited by - keith campbell on 27 May 2010 6:32:35 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 08:03:42 AM
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The only thing I see that may need consideration is the suggestion that P3 500s be not allowed to run in the unlimited class.
This suggests that someone is worried about being beaten by smaller bikes. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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trumpybob
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
29 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 6:34:11 PM
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John;
Since that item has my name on it I suppose I should reply. For those not familiar with P3 the 500 class is predominantly grand prix machinery some of which hold lap records faster than their P4 and often p5 counterparts, very exlusive machinery worth a small fortune. The unlimited class however is made up of clubman machinery, that is road bike based racers, built and fettled by their owners, for the most part unfortunately no match for grand prix machinery and certainly no match for the repro molnar style of 500.
Consequently the unlimited class could be destroyed by becoming uncompetitive in their own class.Hardly just a case of being scared of smaller bikes. |
Racing is everything,the rest of the time is just waiting |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 09:52:21 AM
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Bob, I am well aware of the P3 500 situation and I feel for you.
Perhaps we need to differentiate between clubman and GP bikes.
Unfortunately the word unlimited extends upwards and downwards and with the ruling that bikes can compete in the next larger class your exclusivity has really taken a knock.
If we called the P3 unlimited the P3 Unlimited Clubman event you would be protected from the Manx Nortons and the G50s etc. and I think your idea would go through without appearing discriminatory.
It may be as simple as a change of wording.
Your thoughts?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 8:23:43 PM
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So what do you make of the p6 proposal it says they are putting a set of rules together for discussion etc. is it planned to run this class at all histotic meetings or will be up to the clubs.
Is it definatly in for next year? it was not clear to me.
i read somewhere that some clubs wanted p6 run in modern meetings ,true or false?.Not a good idea for the future of the class in my book |
125 alliance |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 09:11:03 AM
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Peter, we already have more than enough eras and classes to accommodate.
The introduction of P6 will only make matters worse.
My understanding at this time is that P6 will be part of the "modern" meetings.
This does, of course, create problems for the future and is an issue that will need a lot of thought.
As time passes there will be natural attrition and we may well find that only periods 3,4,5 and 6 attract sufficient riders to make them viable.
While there are sufficient P2 entries we should encourage them to keep turning up.
We are talking about historic racing and therefore we should try to encourage bikes from all eras to come out to play.
Do we send P1 and P2 off to the museums in order to cater for P6?
Do we have Saturday races for some and Sunday races for the others?
Perhaps, if we had statistics, we could plan into the future with some idea of where we might be in 5 or 10 years from now.
Unfortunately our sport seems to only come together at the last possible moment which makes planning very difficult.
Let's get some ideas for the future. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 11:52:43 AM
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| Perhaps John could give us some insight as to how hmrav views this new class of historic racing |
125 alliance |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 12:28:56 PM
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I have just checked out the Manx G.P. site and their idea of "classic" bikes is 2 strokes made before Dec 31st 1967 and 4 strokes made before Dec 31st 1972.
If we adopted this as our P3 and called our current P5 P4 we could then have the proposed P6 as our new P5.
I have not given this any serious thought so if it has horrible flaws please make them known.
Food for thought only. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 12:21:21 PM
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The current view on the next period, called P6, is as follows.
- The HMRAV has 57 events per weekend with the existing clases
- Modern meetings currently have a shortage of machines attending.
- P6 machines are closer to modern bikes than even P4 and P5 machines.
- Thus we are keen for P6 machines to race at Modern club racing events.
Back ground;
Historic racing in the minds of some should cover the very old technology, in the case of cars the old open wheelers adn specials formthe 30's to the 60's. Because of the interpretation of "Historic" we now have tin tops that we chased girls in racing as "historic', which is silly. Consequently metings are filling up with tin tops at the expence of the real cars.
Bikes could suffer from the same problem.
By keeping styles of older bikes within the realistic groupings people can go along and enjoy the style of racing they like. Personally I am not interested in tin top racing with cars and modern bikes are as monotonous as watching grass groe because in my opinion they all look and sound the same.
For myself "historic rcaing" covers machines that reflect the early days of racing and that covers bikes that are varied.
Summary
My club has the view that since modern clubs can easily accomodate more classes than the HMRAV can, we would prefer to increase numbers within the P1 - P5 range.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 12:49:11 PM
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Without our stoic HMRAV and other "Historic" clubs we are all doomed.
Thank goodness their resolve is unwavering in the promotion of proper Historic Racing!
The concern for Period 3 Unlimited class in my opinion is entries.......
At current levels im am (personally) concerned that without riders getting amongst ourselves we are the only ones to blame for "bumping" to continue.
At recent meetings the numbers of P3 Unlimited bikes on the grid has numbered under 10.......
Through campaining for P3 350 and 500 races to be separated at HMRAV meetings this has been acheived only because there are enough starters.
P3 Unlimited riders have to get on the blower together and get MORE bikes on the grid!!!!
It can and must be done to therefore warrant excluding bumping, or still allow this to keep numbers up but race for no points to sastisfy our spectators.We are after all "putting on a spectacle" aren't we? Nobody wants to see 5 or 6 bikes per race......
Not wanting to get up any noses here, purely attempting to inspire and motivate more entries which can only be good for all!!!
Cheers
Keith. :) |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 1:12:46 PM
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| Well said Keith. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 1:18:27 PM
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| Are you telling me that a race prepared Period 5 SR500 is much faster than a Molnar Manx or a period 4 Seeley G50? If you want full grids surely it's time to start allowing competition in Period 3 from similar 'types of bikes' from later periods? If we continue to insist on eligibility as being the sole criteria for allowing bikes to race each other, in this case we lose out. The rule about eligibility should be about maintaining authenticity in every machine, i.e. no disc brakes or slicks on period 3 machines. Or perhaps we could really daring and copy the Poms, and allow a single disc on P3 bikes? |
Edited by - glen20 on 07 Jun 2010 1:23:30 PM |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 2:38:11 PM
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As someone who currently competes in P6 I read any related commentary with great interest. While I appreciate HMRAV is very much about nostalgia and authenticity, grids are already full and the membership quite rightly should shape the experience of the club, I am a little bemused around some of the perceptions that P6 is somehow "too modern". For example, the oldest eligible bikes for P6 are already 27 years old. The expected date range for P6 will be 1/1/83 to 31/12/90. Bikes didn't suddenly become too modern after New Year's Eve 1982. Can someone pls advise how old the previous Periods were at the time of their respective inclusion as offical Historic periods??
Irrespective of what happens at club level, if P6 is incorporated in the 2011 MoMs then it can and will be a bona fide class at State and National Historic Events. I completely understand the restraints around current fields however it must be said that P5 has surely reached a plateau in terms of participation, interest and promotion. P6 has the potential to be as big if not bigger. The earlier periods are on the wane. This is simply natural attrition. What was the feeling when P5 was introduced??
I also note the thread elsewhere regarding Historic Superbikes which has no mention of P6 - corerct me if I'm misled but when I think Superbike I think P6 not P5.
Most of all, I don't understand the divisions between the various camps, surely we are all dependent on, and necessarily supportive of, all historic classes??
I grew up around P4 and P5 bikes at places like Silloth, East Fortune and later, Knockhill. My dad raced a Vincent outfit, Bultaco solos, an MV, and various other marques of the day. He sold his T200 to a young bloke called Joey Dunlop, so the story goes. So when I became old enough to ride, it was in the 80's. We all fall to the period we grew up with, its perfectly natural. My love for bikes therefore was borne of P5 but fully realised in what will be P6. generations change, that's it.
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 7:31:15 PM
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I agree with all that u have said Jasonl,some people refuse to accept that we are involved in HISTORIC RACING not just classic racing and as time moves on different bikes will fit that catogary ,if we stand still the sport will die.
I can wll imagine some the best close racing will be p5 p6 racing that is what spectators want to see that will keep the sport alive,
P6 bikes will still look like real bikes not like modern racing where all the bikes look the same.bring it on i say. |
125 alliance |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 08:27:28 AM
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| When Derek Picard and Peter Lord of the Velocette Owners Club started this historic racing BS in 1973, the objective was stated that we should preserve old racing machinery. How many 80s TZs and RSs have been 'preserved' so far? Period 6 would include the Yamaha OWO1. Has anyone 'preserved' one of those? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 08:51:48 AM
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The problem I see here is that because of the emphasis on periods there are now too many of them.
Maybe it is time we gave serious thought to restructuring our periods so that we can create a manageable number of events.
If we could group bikes by their technical development level rather than by their date of manufacture we may be able to achieve bigger grids and fewer races.
Is this too hard to do? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 09:55:09 AM
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Alan,
I'm not quite sure what angle you're coming from here....however plenty of RS and TZ250's have been 'preserved' as have OW01's....even better, many are actively raced and not 'preserved' in museums or people's minds.
John, I know this old chestnut is a favourite of some of you. I don't think there are too many Periods (in fact I'd say there is one short )However its the class structure within those that can seem scrappy.... look, I'm a bit amazed about the amount of commentary devoted to making grids more competitive and fair, when the majority of people racing in any Historic period are more interested in just having a run on their bikes with like-minded people. Sure, there are serious competitors and serious events, but that's for the individual to choose and it seems in those handful of classes that are genuinely competitive, the structure seems adequate. Grouping by technical development is an interesting idea but I think that happens to a reasonable degree anyway, and MoM's has its Period exclusions and inclusions accordingly. If we did race to technical development, what would it look like? Would it make sense? What would we see? I feel we'd still come up against the same problem.
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 10:31:53 AM
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Jason, I don't know anything about P6 bikes but I do know that they deserve their place in history.
The problem is how are we to accommodate them?
H.M.R.A.V. is historic racing in Victoria and under the current way events are run there simply isn't room for P6 unless major changes are made.
Since this does not seem likely to happen two problems are appearing.
First is that H.M.R.A.V. is ultimately going to wither and die.
Second is that there may be the need to have a Post Classic club in Victoria.
This perhaps could start somewhat akin to the B.R.A. in being a voice of P6 competitors within the "modern" clubs and then develop further as it grows in strength and P7 becomes accepted as historic.
You are an intelligent young man so maybe you could devote some thought to how you see the future.
The future doesn't belong to decrepit old farts like me, we have enough problems with the past to keep us busy. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 11:04:13 AM
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John,
I can tell you its nice to be referred to as young when you're 43!!
I have no truck whatsoever with H.M.R.A.V wishing to maintain the integrity of their older bike focus. It's admirable. Sure, over time they may need to accept P6 in to maintain viability, grids and race program permitting of course....but this may be many years away and will be a natural shift. To me its all about the bikes. There is as much gorgeous and intriguing machinery in P6 as there is in every other period and that is what matters most. Other clubs will offer some form of class for P6 -Hartwell already do and Vic Titles have a pre-modern class which they can run in, if not terribly competitively (having said that my FZR1000 is not so far shy of an early R1 to make it uninteresting....)
I don't know about yet another organisation involved in historic racing, although I have had thoughts of a P6 specific forum / website to at least have a focal point (which would keep John Daley happy to see it off this this site I'm sure!!) |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 12:56:43 PM
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Well, you're 30 years younger than I am. Bloody kids!
Good that you are thinking of the future already.
I have faith in you, you will come up with the right solution.
I imagine that as more bikes turn up they will create the need for their own events. Now all you need is a bit more FIZZ.
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 1:14:25 PM
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John, I guess there is one latent irony - a lot of commentary on this site, as with PCRA and others, concerns attracting more interest and spectators in order to preserve that old bike focus. Yet P6 is more capable of doing this than perhaps any other Period. Consider the appeal of the likes of Campbell etc back on their Superbikes and gridding up again? Remember several of them are drawcards for the Island Classic, BSFoS etc and are for many people, more readily asssociated with P6 in anycase.
The truth is, apart from the Island Classic, purely historic racing simply doesn't pull in much interest outside the immediate sphere of the competitors themselves ie: family, friends and the odd bike fan. It's almost a private pleasure. And do you know what? I think a lot of people like it that way. |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 6:17:17 PM
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I am sure p6 can be run at Historic meetings at least until the class gets established and we se what sort of numbers of bikes we are looking at,, run them in with p5 bikes, maybe combine some of the other classes that have low numbers to give another race,
Lets not be to negative here, p6 superbikes will pull good spectator numbers,we need that to keep the sport going.
If the nos, get to big lets look at that then
J. D. was calling for ideas for more spectators competiors etc. here it is |
125 alliance |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 10:11:21 AM
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Well, in Hartwell they currently run one Historic class regardless of Period, so we do see P5's racing with P6's and often closely. At Broadford a few weeks ago we were three abreast in some turns. There are currently only about 7 regular P6 runners in Vic but I know of many other bikes out there and in NSW there are, if you include 125's around 40 P6 bikes already racing regularly (and not including eligible buckets) Until P6 is ratified then historic meets are unlikely to entertain them, however a feature race could work and still fit in the busy programs (I have for instance asked that next years Barry Sheene have such a P6 feature race) |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:02:53 AM
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Jason, thanks for the tip to read here.
I will answer a few points at a time.
Currently P5 is not full, there is plenty of room for more, particularly in the lower than 900cc capacity classes.
We currently gain more bikes at each meeting and also I am getting calls every fortnigjt about them.
When P4 and P5 were introduced to Historic racing, yes there was anguish. I was resdponsible for pushing P5 on the club and I copped it.
But at that time there were no alternatives, thats why through the road race management coimmittee I brought the matter up and now the older " modern " bikes are catered for. Jason, you suggest we got it a bit wrong.
Well, we have not changed it becuase until now there has been virtually no feedback about it, but taht can be taken on board.
The HMRAV has the view as stated many times that since our fields have room for older P3, P4 and P5 bikes, our meetings are well patronised, the paying spectators are happy and the club is making some surplus from spectator fees and our events are up to 57 races we see no need to help the next class. If we did we would finish racing at 6pm.
Our solution is to help the modern clubs accommodate P6.
If that means more dialouge with them I am happy to help
It will be the case that P6 will be able to race at the Historic National Titles and it has been mentioned by many competitors about how will they be fitted into the program?
Another solution is for P6 riders to develop a package of racers interested to help and approach the modern clubs with a program that will work for you. Preston has now altered their programs to allow cross entires and that has helped.
It could be that soon there will be racing in groups 1920 - 1982, 1983 - 1995, and then moderns.
As for your comment that historic racing does not pull a crowd, YOU ARE WRONG,that is the one thing I have persued with teh HMRAV committee support. We regualarly pull big crowds for Broadford, far more than turn up at any Modern meeting where P6 may be racing at the moment. They subsideise the race entry fees which is why the HMRAV can run with $175 fee and Preston has about $230. I know Hartwell have lower fees and they manage that with higher racer numbers.
Jason as for wishing P6 goes away that not an issue with me. I love blokes racing and when the PCRA site forum was open to the public I was involved, in fact I convinced the HMRAV to support the BERAS at our Vic Titles event and also to help the modern F2 sidecars.
If you want another site, let us know I can help.
We tried to get a group of the folowing bikes to organise themselves and each group fell aprt with infighting and false promises.
- 125 solos
- 250 solos
- CB350 Hondas
- Veteran bikes where 7 promised to attend and 1 sent an apology.
So if you want to present a package even to my club, make sure its viable and not full of false promises. I will happily pass it on, but make sure we dont finish racing a 6pm nor trash our P5 unlimited class.
One way maybe to have you racing on Saturday only.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 2:44:45 PM
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John,
Thanks for taking the time to read my message and for drafting a thoughtful reply. Just a couple of housekeeping items first:
1/ I'm not suggesting you got it a bit wrong
2/ The thought that you'd like to see modern stuff off the website is in part based on comments you'd made in the past, on this Forum for example: "Dont waste my time with later model stuff it can be dealt with in another topic" (27/1/10) and also comments made on the PCRA forum to me along the lines of considering New Era / P6 bikes to be essentially in the same boat as R1's.
Now, apart from the odd signature event, I just don't see crowds at bike events Historic or otherwise. I guess it comes down a bit to perception - what is a good crowd at a bike meet these days???
Thanks for the offer to assist set up a website, I'll ponder that, I'd want to make sure I could make it happen and see it through before I'd commit. As you say there are enough false promises out there already.
I guess one main thought I had was simply that when P6 is ratified, you would have the historic club in Vic telling a historic class that they have to race elsewhere. The idea is incongruous. I agree we should not combine P5 and P6 grids. I understand completely the restrictions around licensed hours and race programs etc.
Agree with your suggestion that Saturday only may be workable. Perhaps a P6 feature race at one meeting to gauge interest. Currently the P6 numbers are small and those guys are already ensconced in Hartwell mainly and may not initially see the point in running at HMRAV as a one-off. It would need plenty of lead time but I could rustle up as much interest as I could beforehand. But there are bikes coming out and once ratified, it will pull a lot of interest. I'll give it some more thought.
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 09:30:33 AM
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Jason, how do you see the new period 6 class being run at historic meetings? Should it be run as a separate period with it's own race(s)? The BEARS fit into a lot of the existing historic classes, so can cross enter. Do the larger period 6 bikes fit the 'historic superbike' concept? That would mean one 'feature race' in the programme. The 80s TZ250s, and RS125s could fit into existing period 5 classes. I can see an ongoing problem with extending historic races to include more periods, this current situation will continue as the current machinery ages.
John Daley, I've been told that Preston Club is not really interested in catering for bikes made prior to 1990. If the modern meetings don't cater for 80s bikes, that puts more pressure on HMRAV? Seems to me that motorcycling australia has a role to play in this? |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 3:21:40 PM
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Alan, how do I see P6 being run at Historic meetings? Tentatively, at first. Ideally it should be run as its own separate period however under some circumstances it won't always be possible. I'm not across the exact details of the 'historic superbike' concept but my instinct tells me bigger P6 bikes most certainly do fit something very close to it. Agree there is an issue of too many periods and classes. I think it will naturally occur that as P6 becomes more popular and bigger, as P5 has, it will naturally be made room for. Natural rates of attrition in the older classes will also bring about a consolidation of some classes where numbers are thin (and competitiveness is of less interest with older bikes, rather more just giving them a run)
Apart from feature races (fastest 40, historic superbikes, etc etc) I think periods should be kept apart where possible - P5 has such a distinct feel and following that it should not be watered down by P6 or any other period, and conversely P6 should be allowed to showcase its own distinctiveness without interference. PCRA of NSW are the biggest grids of P6 bikes; grids used to be all P6, F1, F2 and F3. Due to various issues they then combined the F1 and F2 bikes with Premoderns of the same formulas, and hived off the F3 P6 and premodern bikes into one race. One side-effect was to bury P6 bikes amongst pre modern.
I wouldn't worry too much about Preston not wanting to run a specifically pre 90 class -they already run a pre- 2001 class and anything older falls in there. Even that doesn't get a lot of numbers - 5 at most rounds, 3 R1's an RSV1000 and me. Same at interclub. Hartwell Premodern came about mostly so the 400's could have a second race. In other words its a fill-in class whereby nearly all entrants are already running in their primary class (400's, Historics, 2 stroke etc)
At this stage P6 looks like it will be structured loosely along '89 GCR lines - so a superbike class, 125/250 GP class(es), a 250 proddie class and a production 4 stroke class for 750's etc. Let's assume early numbers are modest, you could combine a couple of grids and have perhaps 2 or 3 races.
I don't think there would be all that many BEARS bikes that are pre 90 and could therefore cross enter. And for that reason I see it the other way round - lots of historic bikes fit existing BEARS classes. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 11:08:54 PM
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GD - Is that link right?
I don't seem to be able to get to it.
Thanks,
Bummers |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 08:35:28 AM
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Drat ! Will try again after work ...
May be on the MA site by now. |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 11:55:20 AM
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Found it (regarding numbers- see BR1328):
You must be logged in to see this link.
Bernie |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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