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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2010 : 09:03:00 AM
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AC / Glen20 has been making comments about the Winton MC club and the Winton circuit on a multitude of websites. One thing that has come out of this is how expensive Winton is to hire, particularly in light of what you get. I'm very curious about some aspects of Winton now, so I pose a few questions to you Alan which I hope you can answer:
1/ Why is it that Winton charges so much relative to other circuits?
2/ What upgrades and repairs are forecast in the next 12/24/36 mths?
3/ The ownership history is interesting....how did a club or two come to own the circuit?
4/ How does that work in practice, is the track an asset on the clubs books or is it more structured than that ie: run as a separate business and not subject to the normal club processes?
5/ How is Winton going to retain customers? Clearly it needs to do something to stop the rot.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2010 : 4:27:34 PM
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Jason you may need to think laerally.
It could be that Winton Charge that amount because people are willing to pay it.
Car racing costs a lot more than bike racing and the carries seem to think that is ok. So if Wintyon can rent the track for xxxx amount to any car club, they are not going to rent it to a bike club for a lesser amount.
They have no particular need to have bikes there at all.
I dont know the ownwership details, I am aware at some stage it was a public park etc called Winton Park from memory.
One reson the $14,000 track hire is a lot per bike is that we are lucky if 110 bikes turn up. If we had 200 bikes turning up, the track hire would drop per bike substantially.
Does that help?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2010 : 4:31:42 PM
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From search
"October 2007 marks the 50th Anniversary of the formation of the Benalla Auto Club. The club was formed by a group of local north-eastern Victorian motoring enthusiasts almost half a century ago, leading to the commencement of motor racing at Barjarg, and the establishment and ownership of the nationally and internationally famous Winton Motor Raceway. "
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The Benalla Auto Club was founded Thursday 17 October 1957 by local school teacher, Bruce Watt. It's first General Meeting was held in Walker's Sports Store in Bridge Street, Benalla (currently Hide's Bakery) with an initial membership of 20 persons. The Benalla Auto Club conducted it's first activity, a Gymkhana, on the 1st December, 1957 behind Terrett's Sawmill, Roe Street, Benalla with the Club moving on to conduct several club rallies, then known as Trials.
Benalla Auto Club conducted it's first motor gymkhana at Barjarg on Sunday 11 May, 1958 to raise funds for the erection of a public hall, making a profit of 195 pounds from the event. The Lap Record was set by Hoot Gibson, in a Standard.
In August 1958 the Club began planning to build a permanent motor racing track.
The Club's first ever full on race meeting was conducted on the 25 January, 1959 and had over 50 entries with a profit of 325 pounds. In March 1959 CAMS inspected the Barjarg circuit and licensed it for open motor racing.
23 June 1960 saw plans announced for the establishment of a motor racing track on the Winton Recreation Reserve. Development was enthusiastically supported by Winton residents and Benalla traders.
The construction of the 1.3 mile bitumen circuit was completed in just 12 months, with the top layer of blacktop put down just a few days before the inaugural meeting. The total cost of the construction then was 10,000 pounds
The first race meeting was conducted on 26 November, 1961. The circuit's first meeting included the entry of local star Barry Stilo, who set the track's very first Outright Lap Record, a now modest time of 1 minute 24.2 seconds in a Faux Pas (today's lap record for the short circuit is 52.9900s - set by Mark Larkham in April, 1992 in a Reynard 90D).
The first Championship meeting on 9 December, 1962 (Victorian Formula Junior Championship)
In 1978 The Benalla Auto Club hosted the Rose City 10,000 which saw Formula One World Champion, the late James Hunt, race at Winton, where he dominated the event.
Winton Motor Raceway also hosted the first race meetings of legend drivers such as Peter Brock, Alan Jones and Allan Moffat.
In 1985 Winton hosted it's first ever round of the Group A Shell Australian Touring Car Championship, which was also the first Touring Car round to be televised by the Seven Network.
Benalla Auto Club's round of the Shell Australian Touring Car Championship Series was a very popular one on the Motorsport Calendar. Each year the race drew record crowds to the North East of Victoria. The touring cars took over as the main event on the calendar from the Rose City 10,000
The Club undertook a $500,000 upgrade in 1995 with the widening of some sections of the track and a new surface laid.
In 1997 the Club added a 1 Kilometre extension onto the existing circuit and resurfaced the entire circuit at a cost of $1.1 Million. This included a new pitlane without the buildings.
On June 5th 2000, 5 weeks before the biggest event on the Winton Motor Racing Calendar, the Shell V8 Supercar Championship Round, an arsonist set fire to the Race Control Tower that stood tall and proud over the circuit for many, many years. To date the arsonist has not been found, but the police are still looking.
The building was restored to its former glory in time for the V8 round, once again standing tall and proud in its rightful place, on the Start/Finish straight on the short circuit.
The circuit celebrated its 40th Anniversary in November 2001, and with recent additions such as construction of Pit Lane garages, a 1000 seat Corporate Pavilion, the new three-storey Race Control building and a "State of the Art" Media Centre, Winton Raceway has grown to become one of the best facilitated race tracks in Australia.
Winton has the unique characteristic where the public can see all of the racing from almost any part of the facility.
On the 28th February 2002 The Winton Motorcycle Club was formed to add representation for the two wheel enthusiast that frequented the Winton Facility. The Club conduct ride and social days and are undertaking the task of building a motocross circuit on the adjacent property to Winton Motor Raceway. The Circuit had its first meeting a flat track practice day in November 2004.
BARJARG RACETRACK (1958 - 1961)
In 1958, The Benalla Auto Club seeing the success of the North-Eastern Car Club's earlier Wangaratta Aerodrome Racetrack and their new "Tarrawingee Racetrack" along with numerous other racetracks that littered North East Victoria and southern NSW decided to build a racetrack at Barjarg, just south of Lake Nillahcootie, in the undulating hills at the base of the Strathbogie Ranges, between Benalla and Mansfeild. Located approximately 1km from the "Barjarg store", 16km from Mansfeild, and around 50km from Benalla, the racetrack was fairly isolated, but still attracted numerous entries for most of its race meetings, and attracted reasonable crowds at the time due to the Benalla Auto Club's great promotion, advertising and organisation at the races. The undulating hillside around the track also made parking and viewing easily accessible for all spectators, which was an added attraction, as many other racetracks offered very poor facilities for both driver and spectators.
On Sunday the 1st of May 1958 the Benalla Auto Club conducted a "Gymkhana" at their new racetrack at Barjarg, in North East Victoria. Proceeds from the event were invested in the development of the Barjarg Circuit.
On the 25th January 1959, the Barjarg Circuit had its "Grand Opening Race Meeting", with over 50 entries, the Benalla Auto Club made a profit of some 325 pounds, after conducting over 20 short races through out the day.
The racetrack at Barjarg was approximately 0.9km long, and was an Oil-Bonded Dirt Racetrack, which despite its relative success during operation, was never fully developed. Apparently along the main straight and some where in the middle of the track was a huge Boulder or Rocky outcrop, which was an added obstacle for the race drivers at the time. During the years the racetrack was in operation, from 1958 - 1961, apparently this "Rock", which the Benalla Auto Club attempted to remove, but just could not budge or move the rock due to its size. The "rock" started to become multicoloured due to cars and their panels scrapping the side of the "Rock", a number of cars came to grief on the "Rock" which was soon named the "Barjarg Rock". Even a number of cars hitting
the "Barjarg Rock" at high speed could not shift it from where it lay with the cars always coming off second best.
The last planned meeting at the Barjarg circuit was conducted during December 1960, as the new “Winton Raceway Circuit” was well under construction with its “Grand Opening” planed for April 9th 1961.
The last race meeting at the Barjarg circuit was held on the 9th April 1961 as a memorial for Mr Ormand Allision, the former President of the Benalla Auto Club who had been killed accidentally during the construction of the Benalla Kart circuit. The Benalla Auto Club had planned the 9th April 1961 as the Winton Grand opening meeting but the track was unfortunately not ready and was moved back to Barjarg. The proceeds from the meeting went to the Allison Family. Today nothing remains of the “Barjarg Race Circuit” except for a cutting in the side of one of the hills at its original location.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2010 : 7:29:17 PM
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Interesting post John, well done.
Alan sidecar 21 WA |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 09:52:38 AM
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Yes John well done very informative. So one answer is to get more bikes per meeting.....
I raised all this regarding Winton because Glen 20 on another forum posted a message that could be construed as saying if the bikes don't like it then lump it - and this from a bike fan! It seemed especially odd when coming out of a thread bemoaning a lack of attention given to Winton mcc by other clubs hosting meetings at their circuit!!
Some bike clubs currently racing there are seriously questioning whether they can justify holding rounds at Winton due to the
disproportionate costs to other circuits and what you get for the money...perhaps Winton has some very high overheads the other circuits are not faced with....
Nothing wrong with my ability to think laterally by the way John. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 2:23:06 PM
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| Jason, while promoters are depending on entry fees to make a profit, it will always be expensive to race. We need to get more spectators through the gates, as we did back in 1985. The trick is to build a following by running meetings which hold the interest of spectators. We must not run races where the classes are dominated, and the race leaders are half a lap ahead of the rest. Also we must promote the heroes (A graders), and the public should know who they are. It would be a good thing if each race class had it's own special interest group website, and each person who registers gets sent the class rules, and supp. regs by email,for meetings which support the class. I suggest we need to get a lot smarter, and use the available technology in better ways. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 2:32:31 PM
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| Jason, I don't think it would be cheaper to hold a race meeting at Phillip Island or Sandown. It might be cheaper at Broadord, but the circuit was built by riders subsidising it through MA levy etc. You have to face facts - the car racing guys haven't got first preference at Winton. They've got more money, and they book in Spetember in the year preceding their proposed meetings. They effectively set the cost structure. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 2:43:51 PM
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| Jason. The MA track licence for Winton allows grids of 50 bikes on the large circuit, and it's possible to run about 20, 6 lap times 3 Km races in one day. Yet we still see motorcycle meetings where some races have only 6 bikes in them. At one meeting the guys finished up at 2pm to get back to Melbourne early. You can't expect Benalla Auto Club to subsidise that. The club is interested in bulding motor sport into something really viable. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 2:56:44 PM
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| When you guys next have a ride at the Interclub, count the number of bikes in each race. Hartwell Club is a bit better , but at both meetings you could have twice the number of entries, and still cope quite well. Three years ago the Interclub was a two day meeting, now it's held on one day only. Sure it's expensive to hire the track, but the entries and spectator following don't justify the overheads. |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 9:15:03 PM
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Hartwell Club have around 600 members country wide. They can run their own meetings which have great credit and nothing to do with any other club or circuit.
Interclub racing is made up of five clubs that have around 200 members and has been for as long as I can remember a one day race meeting - with a really good set up and practice day on the Saturday.
If Winton Motorcycle Club promote their own meeting or an Interclub meeting then I hope that they get a good roll up!!
We can give the WMC favourable hire rates to ensure a profitable event! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 11:11:07 PM
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| Winton Motorcycle Club is presently directing it's efforts at MX. Over 3 years we built a 1.6 Km circuit, and we regularly hold practice, and training days for the kids in NE Vic. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 08:36:51 AM
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Alan,
So are there too many clubs trying to run too many series?
If Winton has more than enough interest from elsewhere to keep it fully occupied that's comforting because it won't take much for one or two bike events to drop off. The motorcycling world has changed since 1985, or rather the rest of the world has changed around it. There are many more things vying for people's time, attention and money. I don't think any amount of innovation will bring in regular crowds club round to club round. Sure, big one-off events always will, such as the GP, Island Classic and so on. Look at the National series (if we can call it that), there is nobody there. Road racing is marginal at best in this country and 25 years ago may be as good as it was ever going to get. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:20:39 AM
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| Winton is in use 365 days per year. About 4 of those days involve motorcycles. The rest are hired by car clubs. Notably there's a group of doctors who bring their Ferraris, amd Porsches, and have a burn around. They share the hire fees between about 8 people. There are too few motorcycle clubs running open meetings, and it's a downward spiral. The clubs need to chase entries for their meetings. This could be done by setting up special interest group websites for each racing class, and building the mailing list from the people who register on it. The Supp Regs, and class rules should be emailed out 3 months prior to every meeting. I'd also point out that it takes the same amount of work to run an open meeting as a club day - so what's the story? It seems that everyone in motorcycle road racing is looking after their own corner, and the petty jealousies are destroying the sport. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:29:08 AM
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| Jason, I believe club meetings are a waste of valuable resources. The biggest ever motorcycle meeting at Winton, was in about 1985. It was an open meeting and the big names were all there. If you want to be negative, and believe that no amount of innovation will bring back those crowds, then we're all stuffed. It's all in the mind, and it's up to you young blokes to make it happen again! Heinz Schluter of Hartwell Club runs the Phillip Island meeting in each January, perhaps we should look to see how he pulls such a large crowd? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:36:42 AM
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| The big names help pull a crowd. At open historic meetings the aces should at least get free entry, and perhaps start money. Robbie Phillis, Wayne Gardner, Wally Campbell, and Kevin Magee have all expressed interest in riding, or are already racing. They're the guys the punters come to see. However we need some really smart racing classes to showcase their abilities. |
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woolshedjack
Level 1 Member
Victoria
12 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:55:13 AM
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| The reason for the demise of crowds and entrants at Winton is simple. Distance. With the re-emergence of P.I. some years back, and the development of the Broadford complex, it means that you can get your thrills closer to home and be home in time for tea. I moved to the Northeast years ago from Melbourne but used to travel up to Winton to Flag marshall for the Hartwell Club. the crowds then were enormous, because at that time you had a choice of Winton or Calder. P.I. and Broadford weren't operating and Calder was boring. Now we have the Easter Broadford extravaganza, the P.I. historics as well as Moto GP and Superbikes. In addition Historic Winton is held in the middle of winter which is nearly always cold up here. There is also a limit as to how many Historic meetings the top racers can commit to each year. They mainly aim for the two big meetings as that is where the media and potential sponsors will focus. Also the cost of bike prep, fuel and accomodation all add up to restrict peoples movements. I work in the wine industry and we see the same thing. The emergence of wine regions closer to Melbourne has had a massive negative impact on visitation to the area. It's not just motorsport, everything suffers as a result of the development and outward spread of Melbourne. Nuff said! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 11:54:11 AM
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Alan,
I am not being negative, simply pragmatic which Woolshed jack's comments seem to back up to some degree.
The comment "club meetings are a waste of valuable resources" however, is negative.
You say only about 4 days involve motorcycles? Come on. If Winton is in use 365 days a year, what's happening there on Christmas Day?? A very cheap track day I hope.
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 8:27:41 PM
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| The three days over christmas are often available if you wish to invest a dollar and promote a meeting. You'd have to develop a hide like Terry O'Neill to cope with the personalities involved. Any other time, you need to book in September of the preceding year. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 09:52:08 AM
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| Jason, When are YOU going to do something to help our sport? It's easy to sit back and complain about the hire fees for the safest circuit in Eastern Australia,( and the only one owned by a motor sport club). But if motorcycle clubs want to race there, they must be able to justify their overheads. Have you ever written an article for any of the motorcycle magazines? Are you active in the road race committee of your club or MV? How about doing something to bring the sport some more glory days? It's up to you young guys to build the sport again! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 2:21:22 PM
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Alan, the quick answer to what I do for the sport is: not enough.
Yes, I have had an article published in the motorcycling media although it was not racing related.
I issued two Newsletters while at PCRA. If you go on their website and look up downloads you will see on one of them.
I regularly attended PCRA meetings and had we not moved to Melbourne I would have ran for a committee position. I have contemplated a position on the MV historic board.
I have been active in pushing P6 to be formalised and promulgated the MA HRR commissions minutes to as many interested P6 parties as I knew.
I took the time to draft a full response to MA on all the Items raised at that HHR meeting.
I have done other bits and bobs here and there over the past few years.
I would do more if I had the time. I have a fairly demanding job which can involve getting caught up in operational issues on weekends and out of hours, we have two young kids, I'm trying to finish a degree part-time and my wife is from a poor country which has its own challenges. Plus 2 current race bikes to keep running.
The most important thing I do for the sport is participate. I race.
How about you, you have lots of time what are you doing to help the sport apart from popping up on every second forum? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 12:47:36 PM
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Jason just out of interest, my club, the HMRAV is not welcoming Period 6 bikes at their meetings. We hope the space available at modern meetings is takne and used by P6.
At current Historic meetings we run up to 54 events over the weekend, our P5 class has plenty of room for more machines and each of the other classes has room.
Any extra period we belive would simply make the days much longer.
So, we have encouraged Hartwell and particularly Preston MCC to run P6. It has been operating for about 4 years as "Pre modern"
and always gets a few entries.
I am not sure making it "Historic" will cahnge the numbes entering much, but at the HMRAV events we would need to potentailly run an extra 6 events over the weekend to accommodate them. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 06:29:02 AM
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| John, how about changing the cutoff date for period 5, and including largely ummodified period 6 bikes? That way you'd get more entries, and a full period 5 grid? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 11:25:14 AM
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| Jason, I'm still not sure what this topic is about? Isn't it great that we live in a democracy where the free market sets the prices, and we're free to choose to walk away if they're too high? We also have freedom of speech, and organisations such as MA and MV to represent us while negotiating with promoters. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 1:24:56 PM
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John,
For good order's sake all you need to know about my views of P6, P5 and HMRAV are in the thread "MA minutes of meeting" in the Eligibility of Motorcycles tab. I recommend you read them so no-one is under any misconceptions about where I stand.
I am aware that the Vic titles run Pre Modern, I have competed in it - although it has a 9 year old cut-off so I must run my 1988 VFR750 against R1's (if Glen20 objects to running 2 strokes and Wolfenden Honda 750's against his twins try that one!). Hartwell run a P6 series which I have been competing in this year. They also run a pre modern class, with a 10 year cut off which I have also been running in. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 08:45:32 AM
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| Jason, you need to approach the MA historic commissioners to get period 6 ratified, and the 'rules' set for the class. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:21:38 AM
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Too many classes, too many eras, not enough riders to support them and not enough hours in a day to keep them all happy.
Perhaps time for a rethink? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:57:17 AM
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| Alan, to quote you, I'm not sure what this topic is about? Your answer above bears no relation to what my post is about. (FYI I have made a detailed submission to MA regarding P6) |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 8:35:34 PM
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| At the Vic Road Race Championships the other week, they had a total of 128 entries in 13 classes. That amounts to an average grid size of 10 bikes. The track is licenced for grids up to 50 bikes. So the circuit usage was effectively 20% of its potential! When I discussed the thunderbikes class with Francis Conroy, he stated that he had no interest in running bikes made before 1990. So Jason with his 80s FZR won't get a run in either moderns or historics. Perhaps our controlling body needs a rocket up it's fundamental? |
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