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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2002 : 3:19:25 PM
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I understand that MA is close to finalising the mathematical rules which determine track safety. I understand they take into account the entry and exit speeds of all corners and in some cases even "clean lokking" corners in fact are in need of attension. No doubt more will become known soon, but in the mean time it would appear as if most circuits do not need tons of rectification to meet the requiremens. BUT, the carries want almost the complete opposite to motorcycles, concrete walls close to the track edge. So in time tracks may decide to ignore the requirements of motorcyclists.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 09:59:43 AM
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I was recently involved in a risk assessment at Winton Motor Raceway. It involved both reps from CAMS and MA. There were NO guidelines to audit against. CAMS say they have guidelines but didn't produce them. John's engineer mate who was with the working party reckons he has a formula to calculate 'run-off distances' for bikes, and that it should become part of the guidelines.
The fact is that many circuits were built years ago, and as speeds have risen the run-off distances have become inadequate. What happens in effect, is that the sand traps are supplemented by tyre barriers covered with conveyor belting - a two stage system. However you wouldn't want to hit the tyre barrier with a bike. They're OK for cars.
This month Standards Australia are beginning work on a 'guide to risk management in the motor racing industry' which should include guidelines for run-off distances. At Present the guidelines used are set by the FIA (car guys). |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 10:46:39 AM
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| I believe we need to reduce the top speed of machines by reducing capacities. Otherwise we shall have no tracks. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 4:32:45 PM
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John, If we could all take up racing 250, 350 and 500cc four stroke singles or 250cc two strokes, we would have a lovely time doing REAL racing.
I sincerely believe none of us need more than 60 bhp to go racing! |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 02:12:49 AM
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60hp Al,are you scared of going fast?
Double that and things become orgasmic specially on an outfit!
Have MA come up with any guidelines yet?
Is a CAMS copy obtainable to the public?
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 08:16:11 AM
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I am speaking purely as a Road Building engineer.
If we have speeds continue to rise we will not have a track in the country to race on.
the F1 organisation realised this 30 years ago and have introduced steps to keep max. speeds down as technology has improved.
Since Kelvin Curtain had his bike leave turn 1 at the Island and it continued bouncing and rolling across the track at the exit of Southern Lopp I have been thinking about the matter.
Also I think all Solo bikes should have only one wheel, thus making them mono bike, as part of the program. It would stop the lads doing wheelies on the track when the win, save on brakes and tyres and generally make it a better spectacle. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 08:23:50 AM
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I believe the speeds of the 500cc GP bikes at Phillip Island are over 310 kph. When you ask am I 'scared of going so fast', the answer is no. However I know how slack I am sometimes in my preparation, and I know the inevitable will happen. Eventually we will drop off at 310kph. Then have a think about it. If its at turn one we are likely to fly over the hump in the middle of the track and end up in front of the pack.
I never raced at Bathurst because of the solid objects and lack of runoff. The guys I know who raced there, reckon it's the best thing since sliced bread. But I don't think Rod Moorhouse, Ron Toombs, or Ross Barelli would agree.
Fatalities don't help our sport, and I'm not going to be one of them! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 09:54:41 AM
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Fellas it is not a matter of being scared.
Its a matter of running of the track. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 1:35:51 PM
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There have been a few monster crashes at the island guys,
John I was waving flags that day at corner 2.1 and saw the whole thing,yes it was a major get off but the same incident could have happened on a 125gp bike with only 50-60hp.
Before you say crap I have seen it happen in the 125gp races and the Aussie 125 support classes.4 bikes have narrowly missed crossing the track thanks to some good fortune.They were wet races too so they were not going mach 2 down the straight either.
Another at the Island involved Ian McPherson (600 Supersport rider)coming of at turn 9 and his bike sliding into the kitty litter then getting flicked up cartwheeling onto the top of the tyre barrier,tyre barrier then compressed sending one Honda about 20 feet into the air spinning pretty wildly and proceeded to land less than 2 feet from a spectators car parked trackside.
At the time said lady was sitting on a camp stool in front of her car seeing what happened she did a bolt and was lucky enough to only get hit with a carbon fibre air intake and not the bike.
Again I was lucky enough to be doing recovery to witness this.
Alan he wasnt doing 310 either he was "only" doing 187kph.I pressed the readout button on his data logger and that was his last recorded speed.
Track run-off there has been improved since then.
The tracks are gettig improved but these things take time and money.
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Edited by - n/a on 11 Aug 2004 1:43:03 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 4:55:04 PM
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Neill, Phillip Island has some big safety problems. You will have seen the tyre barriers, they're everywhere. Gregg Hansford was one victime. A while back a car hit the tyre barrier opposite the pits and catapulted into the spectator area (noone there, it was a club day).
The safety parameters are set by the car guys, and the circuit (ex)owner is on the CAMS Safety Committee. It's suspected he only participates so he won't have to remove the tyre barriers.
The guys have even suggested putting Armco right around turn 1. What a catastrophy that would be!
I've promised not to say much about MA/MV, but our guys need to be vigilant while these car whackers are making political decisions about safety. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 6:41:57 PM
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| I give up. I talked about reducing speeds not, car stuff.!!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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steve
Level 2 Member
Queensland
86 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 10:18:56 PM
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Hi All
I throught a couple of years ago MA checked all the tracks out for safty when about the time Mcgee ??? in South Oz was killed & only 4 tracks in Australia were Safe with MA. I'm not sure but I did read it somewhere!!
You fellows down South have it made as to what tracks to ride at. Here in Queensland we have QLD raceway which is as exciting as stepping in dog do do on Sunday with no shoes
& Warwick 2 hours outside of Brisbane 1.1klms & other 3.5 new track extenion which MA won't let us ride on because it too dangerous!! Lakeside closed down noise & locals, Darlinton Park closed to anything over 55dbs MA disapproved, Surfers Para(dice) not there anymore. We all go/come down South just to get a ride which is only 10 hours drive away. Dead Set fellows you have it made!! Vic & NSW have options!!! here in Qld we don't have any. I ready think people are turning into arm chair racers these days. Bears down even run this way for the above reasons the Local Body MAQ has not supported us with road racing tracks what so ever here in Queensland.
Steve Queensland |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2004 : 03:38:14 AM
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Armco what a real brainy idea that is!!!
Couldnt agree with you more on that Al that we have to be real vigilant about it.
Car whackers is a bit of an understatement try a bunch of stupid morons with a piece of lint being substituted for a brain is a bit more like it but if I really wanted to say what I wanted to say about em, the masters (Allan+David) would banish me from this site forever for such nasty profanities...
Reducing speed is definatley NOT the answer,thats a recepie for reducing spectator numbers.
If thats whats going to happen Ill get rid of all the roadracing gear and take up drag racing where I can play with horsepower in it rawest form.
You cant eliminate injury or death from racing until you eliminate human error.The boffinhead that can work that one out will be one rich man...
Well designed sand traps is one suggestion as are airfences but as said before improvements cost money and time.
As for you Steve there is only two suggestions buy a sidecar, and move south where racetracks litter the country side, your racing will prosper.
Cheers
Neill
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2004 : 09:04:42 AM
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Neill, I mentioned the car guys, because they are a major influence in 'what goes' at race circuits. The good thing is that when CAMS came to inspect Winton, MA came with them - it was a combined risk assessment.
The speed thing will always be a problem in the future. At Bathurst the chicane has reduced the problem of the runoff at the end of Conrod Straight. But perhaps it's a good thing we don't race there any more. It's a bit of a pity, but even when I was going there in the seventies, guys like Hansford, Willing, Sayle and Takai were doing 180 Miles per hour on TZ750s and H2Rs. I reckon an R1 would be almost as fast, but I doubt that many of the guys who own them can ride as well as the ones I mentioned.
When we talk of 'armchair racers', the one we need to think about is the circuit owner, he carries the risk, he is the one that the families sue, when a fatality occurs. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2004 : 09:20:30 AM
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Steve, your comment about the circuits in Queensland raises a point. I'm regularly involved in getting a couple of events going at Winton Motor Raceway. What happens at other circuits around Australia is a major concern. If competitors, circuit owners, and the motor racing public don't act responsibly, we could see the authorities come down hard. After the inquest into a death at Eastern Creek, the Coroner recommended that motor sport in NSW should be placed under the jurisdiction of Workcover, and that's just the start. I understand CAMS are in shock at the moment, because Workcover are showing them where their responsibility lies at another circuit in Melbourne. Aparrently it's about fuel storage. It all started when a Field Officer noticed the guys filling Aaron Slight's Superbike at Phillip Island while spectators were smoking in the stand over the pits (you'd only have to drop a butt). The car guys have regularly brought large truckloads of fuel to meetings. There's potential for a big fire.
You'll find the motorcyclists will also be looked at!
Motorcycling is fun, but we're not the centre of the universe! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2004 : 11:11:03 PM
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| I noticed at Eastern Creek signs prohibiting smoking in the pits and above the pit lane wwere all ignored. Maybe we need to beat up a couple of these knuckle heads because I have been burnt on my machine by fire started by them. It does happen. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 6:39:11 PM
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John, the whole safety thing is about a change of mindset. A lot of the older guys, both in car and bike racing, were around in the good old days when the 'accidents' happened and guys were killed. It's all about acceptance. you know - 'the throttle turns both ways, and you don't have to race there'.
Anyone who believes 'accidents' are all acts of god, that there's no need to manage the risk, is just asking to end up on an industrial manslaughter charge. Trouble is if we don't get the message to the 'knuckleheads', the incidents will occur and the sport will suffer accordingly. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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