| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| john |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 9:16:20 PM
The question about running push rod pommy bikes born in the 70's actually racing in P3 has been asked. The Historic Committee in Melbourne is looking at encouraging such a promotion. It involves running machines derived from earlier periods , but built in the later periods being able to race against similar machines. Maybe as Classic 750cc 1 and Classic 750cc 2.
The same can apply with some 500cc machines that had distributors added but are essentially old dodgers and again in the P2 /p3 divide when some rigid framed machines were born too late to compete within MA rules but really are P2 machines.
What are your views, who has machines eligible.
I know of 2 750cc Triumphs and one 500cc Triumph at thsi stage.
Please help us, please dont off topic.
Machine possibly eligible are Triumphs, Nortons, BSA's can you name any others or some which may need to be looked at carefully , thanks |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| melbbiker |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 06:06:19 AM
Cheers my old man is having a look at it. I think the internals have been breathed on by decent rider/builder I can't remember his name. It's currently at Russel craddock's (rissole) place so doubt ill get dudded we will give it a good look over too. Just waiting to see if the bloke still wants to sell |
| acotrel |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 08:38:13 AM
Alan
'I did offer to pay Alans entry fee for next years Nationals but have had no response so I dont really believe he is serious about coming out to play '
Thanks for you kind offer. If I wanted to race in a foreign country, I'd transport my bike to New Zealand before I'd go west. At least I'd get decent rides there. The last time I raced was 11km from home and I still managed to spend $700. I will be racing at Winton in April next year at the Austin 7 meeting run by HMRAV, that will probably be the last time unless I get a job or go deeper into debt. I'm looking at C*ntlink in a minute. |
| melbbiker |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 3:33:04 PM
Cheers my old man is having a look at it. I think the internals have been breathed on by decent rider/builder I can't remember his name. It's currently at Russel craddock's (rissole) place so doubt ill get dudded we will give it a good look over too. Just waiting to see if the bloke still wants to sell |
| Allan |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 10:42:15 AM
650 triumph all iron motor
make sure the crank cases are later type with large bearing on timing side.. if altenator type ok.
1956 on generator type motor has extra bit on front side of timming case and needs to have a bit more metal around the bearing on the timmung side |
| melbbiker |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 04:01:33 AM
The cb350 is long gone on eBay, but currently chasing a lead on a 650 triumph all iron motor etc but could be a great starter bike. For a few grand I can't really loose. Hopefully work timing lines up with a couple of race meets next year and I can come get involved.
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| acotrel |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 07:00:04 AM
Alan
Even if we cannot achieve international rules, perhaps we should rationalise the aims of the groups involved in historic/classic racing in Australia. MA could show some leadership and convene a meeting of promoters of historic racing - HMRAV, PCRA, BEARs, Formula Extreme, the circuit owners, and the principals of MA affiliated clubs who run classes for historics/classics at club level. I know we had that meeting at Tullamarine a few years ago, but did not achieve much - perhaps we can improve on that? We might actually find a better way forward. |
| Alan |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 8:46:23 PM
I would also note that various people Alan Especially are very selective when quoting rules especially the pommy ones. Single disc brakes? what rule structure, it certainly isnt the Vintage Club and if it is the CRMC then their cut off is 1968 so they would be on the cuff of using a disc brake anyway, and what about the Lansdowne series, different again, then have a look at NZ or America different again. Maybe it is time for an International set of rules to be developed so all this garbage that gets spouted can be got rid of. Before people quote a countries rules they should state what competition they are alluding to so we can compare apples with apples.
I did offer to pay Alans entry fee for next years Nationals but have had no response so I dont really believe he is serious about coming out to play but just in case I have him wrong I will also pay for his bike transport and will deliver it to the track and back to the transport company after the meeting is over.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
| Allan |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 09:12:31 AM
MV Race models (19461976)
MV Agusta 98/125 Two Stroke 19461949
125 Twin-Cam 19501960
500 cc Shaft Drive Four
MV Agusta 125 Sohc 19531956
175 Twin-Cam 19551958
250 Single 19551959
350 Twin 1957
250 Twin 19591966
500 cc Four 500 cc Six Cylinder 19571958
125 Disc Valve 1965
350 cc Three Cylinder 19651973
MV Agusta 500 Three 19661974
350 cc Six Cylinder 1969
350 cc Four Cylinder 19711976
500 cc Four Cylinder 19731976
Quote "What you are effectively saying is that nobody should be allowed to race a replica Paton 500 or an MV500-3 in Period 3 'because they don't fit our Australian" rules'.
MV3's are P4 not P3
Only MV 4 shaft are P3 also MV 6 P3
Wot I am saying is frames that were not built in/ by 1962 are not P3..
MV 3,4's chain drive are P4..
Team Paton was the most enduring privateer effort in Grand Prix racing, with a presence in the worlds top championship, which began in 1967 with the four-stroke twin-effort ..
NORTON 750cc 1961 =P3
NORTON 850cc 1973 =P5
Colin Seeley bought Associated Motor Cycles' racing department when the company went into receivership in 1966. The previous year he had constructed the first Seeley racing frame to house a Matchless G50 engine, and the AMC purchase enabled him to produce complete Seeley G50 and 7R machines. With their improved frames, the ageing four-stroke singles enjoyed renewed competitiveness, Dave Croxford winning the British 500 Championship on a Seeley G50 in 1968 and '69. The Seeley frame progressed from the duplex cradle Mk1 to the similar but lighter Mk2, before the down-tubes were abandoned with the Mk3, the headstock and swinging arm pivot of which were linked solely by tubes running diagonally above the engine. The Mk4 introduced towards the end of 1970 featured a revised tubing layout and continued in production until 1973. Production of Seeley frames was later licensed to Roger Titchmarsh and there have been countless unauthorised copies made over the years.
Ok Seeley frames =P4
Perhaps it is time to combine Period 3 with Period 4? And combine Period 5 with Period 6 ? We would only have to run half he number of races with much bigger grids, and coud run more capacity classes.
No,leave P3 as is
and combine P5 and P6
Drum brakes up to 1962 were
210mm FONTANA
230mm CEREANI
FONTANA 250mm were later designed for 2 stroke's..P4
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| Historic |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 09:07:16 AM
I thought I'd get involved before the double century on this thread was posted. Close to eight pages!
The same old stuff from acotrel, repeated and repeated. For years and years.
At a recent historic meeting I saw logbooks with numbers well over 2,000, well over. But according to acotrel they all deluded and wrong.
The biggest road race meetings in Australia are historic meetings. But according to acotrel the promoters have the mix wrong.
The public turn up in greater numbers and more often to historic road race meetings, but according to acotrel they don't like what they see.
In fact the only person who has all the answers is according to acotrel....acotrel.
I think the only answer is for all the guys with logbooked race bikes to stop racing.
For the most successful promoters in the country to stop putting on race meetings.
For the public to stop going to those race meetings.
Then we will all meet in central Victoria and sit at the feet of the only guy in the land with the plan to make it all perfect. Replace everything that is growing and successful and change it to ensure a used Seeley ridden by an ex C grade mid fielder is finally recognised as the best in the land.
All Hail the great Acotrel.
Historic
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| acotrel |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 05:01:01 AM
Allan, My Seeley Commando actually has some authenticity about it. F750 was never run here in Australia, but Grant McRitchie imported the MK3 Seeley frame in the 70s. It was designed for the Gus Kuhn commandos which beat the Norton works 750s. He then decided to get smarter, and bought an H2R and got support from Kawasaki Australia. You will also note that nobody ever raced a Seeley G50 here in the 60s, even though they were the best ever British single cylinder bike. What you are effectively saying is that nobody should be allowed to race a replica Paton 500 or an MV500-3 in Period 3 'because they don't fit our Australian rules'.
The trick frames used to be what road racing was all about, however if you use one these days you are effectively excluded from equitable competition due to simple paranoia. The Poms have no problem running Seeley G50s against manxes, ordinary G50s,and BSA Gold Stars . Why do we have this problem in Victoria?
We've had years of argument over the sizes of drum front brakes in Period 3. The Poms permit the use of a single disc brake on the front of their manx Nortons - is that so stupid ? If you want to turn people away from historic racing, what better way than to require the use of a $4000 piece of dangerous garbage , when an effective $500 disc brake will do the job quite nicely thank you ? The time and argument would have been much better spent on working out ways to control the development of vastly oversize motors. One thing that was rarely done in the old days was to cheat on capacity ! Historic racing is bullsh1t - alway was and always will be, and it will disappear because of it.
PCRA seem to be more sensible than HMRAV, but the whole thing really gives me the sh1ts big time ! And where are the BEARs - another bunch of dills ?
Perhaps it is time to combine Period 3 with Period 4? And combine Period 5 with Period 6 ? We would only have to run half he number of races with much bigger grids, and coud run more capacity classes. |
| acotrel |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 04:25:28 AM
Jerry, Are you talking about the recent meeting run by the PCRA at Eastern Creek ? I believe they run the machines you've mentioned together in their classes at Wakefield Park, which is only four hours up the Hume Highway from here. (Closer and cheaper than Phillip Island ). It is quite an attractive proposition, and the accomodation and atmosphere there is great. I think it is as far south that the guys from OZLaverda come with their 900cc triple, and it is worth going there to race for that alone. I've yet to find out how to get copies of PCRA programmes from recent meetings, I won't go there unless suitable classes are actually being continued. I still intend to race at the Austin 7 meeting at Winton next year, and that might be all I can afford without going into debt or finding a job. |
| Jerry |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 11:43:10 AM
Good on you Allan, I agree wholeheartedly with you. All the best Jerry |
| Allan |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 11:21:05 AM
Wot gets me is why do people build bikes that do not fit into our ausralia rules?
ok the pom's run up to 1972 "I THINK"
so maybe these special frames comply!!
gee if i had a norton twin 750 motor i would de stroke it to 500cc use 2:1 conrod length,rev it over 10000rpm, use 6 speed TTL gear box, a manx frame with twin sided drum brake 230mm.. a modern "domi racer"..
how easy to do and run in P3
if only i could win power ball! |
| Jerry |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 09:53:45 AM
Gee Mr. Cotterel if you had a Log Book you could maybe have run at the Nationals a few weeks ago.The organisers combined Classic 500 with Post Classic Unlimited and F750. I imagine you could have enjuyed yourself. Some of the kind of bikes you speak of were competing such as 1x Laverda SFC 917, 1x Moto Guzzi 1000, 1x BMW 1000, 2x Ducati 907 and 1040?, 2x Norton 750, 1x Triton 750, 1x Yamaha 880, 4x Manx Norton, 6x G50 Matchless, 6x assorted and then 7x Honda CB750 based bikes of assorted capacities and NO a CB 750 based bike didnt lead the the field home.It is ashame you dont follow your passion. All the best Jerry |
| acotrel |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 07:01:59 AM
John, it costs money to race. If I cannot get onto a grid with the same TYPE of bikes as my own, I won't be there. The last time I raced in Period 4 at an HMRAV meeting, besides my own Seeley Commando, there was Alan Landers's 750 Harrier framed Triumph,and Robert McKie's 750cc XS2 Yamaha. The rest were either two strokes or 1300cc CB750 Hondas. Alan Landers was refused a log book in Period 4 for his Triumph because of the 70s frame, so no longer races it. Robert McKie has been doing a rebuild. If I come to your next meeting, who am I going to race who has a thunderbike ? Mixed grids are killing our sport, and that not only applies to historics. O'Neill has created the same problem with his FX classes.- We see 'Pro-thunder' with VFR400 Hondas running alongside thunderbikes. If you are going to run a superbike race, call it that and exclude thunderbikes and two strokes. If you start running two stroke races, I have one of those - why would I run it against superbikes and thunderbikes ?
I suggest MA and HMRAV should get their heads straight and look at the big picture. The classes that are currently run, discourage a lot of people. It is extremely frustrating to see the odd classic ducati in Period 5 and BEARS and know that I will never get to race against them, or even against Lucas's 1000cc Vincent or the 750s in Period 3.
Your historic racing is bullsh1t,-always was and always will be. If you'd ever raced a solo in Allpowers C Grade you'd know that! |
| john |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 10:39:48 PM
Thanks Jerry.
Alan, I really think you keep your bike at home because you dont want to race any longer. The comment about getting classes right is a furphy, but ask the HMRAV if you can come to a committee meeting and put your case to them directly, I am sure they would listen. |
| Jerry |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 12:37:32 PM
Dear Melbbiker, Just got off the Ph from Keith. he ran 3rd in the Natioal Chamionship on his CB350 based bike. He won the 1st non championship race at the meeting. The results show CB72 but the bike is CB350. All the best Jerry |
| Jerry |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 12:09:29 PM
Dear Melbbiker, Please look at the results for P4 350 Australian National Championships on Natsoft and you will find that the winner is Keith Campbell on a CB350 based bike. Go out and enjoy yourself and dont listen to negativity. All the best Jerry |
| Jerry |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 11:35:34 AM
Dear Melbbiker, Please look at the results for P4 350 Australian National Championships on Natsoft and you will find that the winner is Keith Campbell on a CB350 based bike. Go out and enjoy yourself and dont listen to negativity. All the best Jerry |
| acotrel |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 05:39:14 AM
I don't think you will get an answer to your question. There is always a lot of talk, but little recognition of the consequences of not making the changes to get more bikes onto the grids. It has always been a problem with historic racing, that the guys think about what should be stopped from running in various classes rather than how more guys can be encouraged to race. I probably take the wrong approach myself - my bike stays at home until HMRAV get their race classes right , and it is worth the expense of competing. (Running unit Triumphs and commandos in the same races as pre-unit - you would think the bl00dy world was going to end !) |
| melbbiker |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 6:08:42 PM
So they would let me ride the '71 Honda in P3 without a disk brake? Or would I just be trying to get away with them thinking its a cb72? Thanks for the replies |
| john |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 9:12:57 PM
Get the Honda, there are a few now running and they have a good time. |
| acotrel |
Posted - 20 Nov 2012 : 07:13:57 AM
Your dad with his 7R would face a much larger bill if it sticks a rod out of the motor, other than that there is no reason the competition should not happen. My feeling is that the only problem with air cooled two valve fourstroke classes for singles twins and triples, is that care must be taken when disc braked bikes run in the same races as drum braked. It frequently happened in the late sixties/early seventies, with very few accidents. But if someone gets silly and intends to crash another rider, it can be a problem. It is simply a matter of being aware, and avoiding situations during racing. |
| melbbiker |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 05:06:24 AM
hi new member here
just spent the last hour or so reading from start to finish, i think i counted 6 laps... haha
just wondering how this proposal has developed if at all? im looking to get into period 3 racing. and seen a lovely little '71 CB350 for sale and know it would be a ball against the other 4 stroke twins in period 3 but rather pointless in P4. removing the disk is an understandable requirement i am a younger rider and not experienced so all the trophy boys would not have any worries. would be good fun to be on the same grid as dad on his 7R and watch him disappear into the distance haha |
| acotrel |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 4:14:58 PM
Fuel is covered by the GCRs, not the historics rules. In any case nitro was used 'in the era' in bikes like the Jesser Triumph, and your mate's 250 Suzuki when he rode for Cornell. |
| Jerry |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 07:35:12 AM
Hi John, I think a new way of going racing could be that you build a bike and then re organize the Rule Book to suit. It has possibilities. We could end up with a 4 valve Rickman unit Triumph engine running on Nitro in a Harris Moto GP rolling chassis. Never mind it is only a fantasy. All the best Jerry |
| john feakes |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 07:07:19 AM
I've still got a hangover!
Have you? |
| Jerry |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 07:05:32 AM
And run it in P3? All the best Jerry |
| acotrel |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 11:06:57 PM
I think it would be easy to build a really good fast bike out of a unit Triumph. Find a Rickman/Weslake head. Make a 75mm stroke billet crank, and use the 750 bore with decent cams and exhaust. It would rev to 10,000 and never drop a valve. And the head would deliver to its full potential. It would be a move away from featherbed frames, but it would limit us to five speed gear boxes. |
| keith campbell |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 2:57:04 PM
Thanks for correcting the page. :) |
