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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2007 : 8:46:11 PM
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I see that the two riders busted for no insurance have finally had the matter resolved. Peter Large has done his time and paid the fine, so he can now race again.
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 04:45:06 AM
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| The 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motorsport' is available at You must be logged in to see this link. . Perhaps you blokes need to read it, and understand the consequences of your actions. It wouldn't take much these days to lose the sport. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 07:47:46 AM
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I think it was a selfish act to pull, saving money for themselves and creating the risk.
Yet if I remember right, quite a few people reckoned they were hard done by and that MA was hassling them for no reason. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 4:37:43 PM
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After a phone call from Peter Large to remove the topic as he stated: "It is not true" and further investigations from here and a others, the topic has been found to be valid.
Motorcycling Vic have sent me the following link: You must be logged in to see this link. (in PDF format)
There you can read all about it. No biggy, just a small ban from racing and a small fine which has all been sorted.
Sorry Peter, but if it is true, then it needs to be out there. If I had of found it to not be true, the topic would of been removed, but as you can see from the MA Judicial Committe document from the tribunal which both you and David where the Appellants and they are making public the document, then this is an interesting topic to continue with.
Should you wish to put your side forward, please sign up and let us know further.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 5:55:44 PM
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| It's really no biggy racing without insurance except for the implications for the sport for any future incident investigations. The only guy we have to worry about is Graeme Johnston (coroner). The Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport has been recently released by Standards Australia. It has a certain relevance, and is about setting certain standards for managing risk at race meetings. It's early days yet, however it'd be unwise to stand before Johnston too many times, without having done what could be done to 'get it right'! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 6:04:12 PM
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I was sad to see this episode happen over what was probably a misunderstanding about jurisdictions and applicability of licences/insurances. It appears that justice has been done.
Perhaps the 'controlling bodies' should provide more information about their management policies in this area? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 07:56:28 AM
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B******* its not a big deal.
"Sad" it may be a misunderstanding, what garbage.
I cant imagine how long the line of people standing there with their hand out for money if a serious accident took place involving another rider .
The club would have to explain why scrutineering was not done, the officials would have plenty to defend and the injured rider would have cause to be very pissed off if no insurance funding came through.
Racing without insurance is like driving a car with no third party insurance, "a rort"
There can be no misunderstandings,people know whether they have the correct paperwork or not.
If you are going to race in Australia, surely its easy to have the peperwork correct.
I hope they did not have a cheap racing licence from the Cayman islands or something like that, and not help with the cost of racing here. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 08:42:01 AM
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| Are you sure your insurance actually covers you when racing your motorcycle? In car racing both CAMS and AASA get their insurance from the same source - Lloyds of London! What is the name of the underwriter for insurance for the motorcycle controlling bodies, and where is the company based? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 09:59:25 AM
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MA owns its own insurance company. AON are the brokers
Yes you are covered in a manner explained in the GCR's. Cash amount for death, limited funds for other injuries.
I dont know where it is based, I think in Europe somewhere, but if people ride with no insurance we may need something in the Cayman Islands as well. |
Edited by - oldonk on 05 Sep 2007 3:27:49 PM |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 3:33:27 PM
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Let me get this straight:
As far as I was aware it is only the insurance you recieve from MA (with a valid licence) and Ambulance cover that is required right?
So, you only need a valid MA licence and Ambo membership or private health insurance that provides ambulance cover.
Are you guys talking about a different additional insurance?
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Try Everything |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 4:03:58 PM
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Ben,
I stand to be corrected here but I think the issue relates to two blokes on a sidecar who were racing in Australia with overseas licences. It was, I think, discovered later that they had no insurance to race. I am not sure why that happened, perhaps because the license insurance from the country from which the licence was issued didn't operate in Australia. I have read the attachment in David's posting and its clear that the licences were valid but they were not insured. I don't know if they raced and avoided payment of insurance willingly or maliciously, if it was an oversight or if they simply thought they were covered. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the licenses issued in Australia. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 4:26:11 PM
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Ian,
I do not know if you noticed the sarcasium in my post when I said it "was no biggy"..quote:
Originally posted by oldonk
B******* its not a big deal.
"Sad" it may be a misunderstanding, what garbage.
It is huge and open for debate, that is why I only moved the topic and made the enquiries as I did to make sure it was in the publics best interest to proceed with it...   |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 5:43:12 PM
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Like Ben, I think, I am still confused.
If I hold a valid Australian Racing Licence, have full Ambulance coverage, pay the approriate fee to enter, and the additional insurance fee, am I OK to race?
Thanks, Tony. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 6:10:14 PM
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If you have a license, then you should be covered, but the finding showed that:quote:
Two competitors, Mr David Large and Peter Large, after a legthy investigation, were declared by Motorcycling Victoria to have competed whilst unlicensed and not to have been appropriately insured or appropriately authorized by the FMN.
They appealled and this was the finding:quote:
(a) each Appellant was the holder of a current recognized licence;
(b) each Appellant had 'clearances' from the authority that issues those licences; but
(c) neither Appellant had insurance cover.
Apart from the spelling in the document that I posted the link for, it clearly states why they where brought to the Judical hearing and their appeal. I hope that clears some.. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 9:20:06 PM
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With respect; the people concerned were found to be in possession of "valid and recognised" licences on appeal and the MV finding was overturned on that point, so they had valid licences. Their offence according to the decision on appeal was the lack of appropriate insurance.
Nowhere in the "reasons for decision" is it explained why they had no insurance. I must say I find that strange - after all these are supposed to be a set of "reasons for decision" - but it is not necessarily legally incorrect for the tribunal to not put in the detail. In fact they might be a bit worried about doing so because of the libel laws in this country. In any case the appeal tribunal don't have to say how they came to the decision or the penalty to be applied but I would have thought for the sake of transparency it would be prudent.
In any case I think for people to make statements about the motives of the Large's without the motives being stated in a proper set of reasons might purchase the Large's a swimming pool. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 05:32:18 AM
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| Cut it out fellas! This stuff about buying someone a swimming pool is just too much! Forget the libel laws! Just cop it sweet! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 05:41:31 AM
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| I suggest it's a very strange mindset that believes that the tribunal should explain why anyone 'had no insurance'! Surely it's up to the person before the tribunal to explain??? Are you trying to say that bringing these two guys before the tribunal was 'vexatious'? I suggest you need to look at what the alleged offence actually was, and how it could affect the rest of us, in the extreme case! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 05:53:59 AM
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Ref the comment :
'MA owns its own insurance company. AON are the brokers
Yes you are covered in a manner explained in the GCR's. Cash amount for death, limited funds for other injuries.
I dont know where it is based, I think in Europe somewhere, but if people ride with no insurance we may need something in the Cayman Islands as well.'
How does the IOM sound to you? If you had a big claim, do you think you'd be paid? Lloyds of London sounds better to me! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 12:14:11 PM
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| I don't know what you guys are getting excited about. The Larges didn't crash while racing with no insurance cover. No-one became a paraplegic. There was no multimillion dollar compo case with MA, the promoter, and the circuit owners as defendants. All that's needed is what the kids say when they smash the sh*t out of your car - SAW-REE. (I believe at least one circuit owner is waiting for the same thing from Dave, for a similar misdemeanor?) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 2:57:59 PM
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Allan,
The reason why a tribunal should, in my opinion, put the explanation offered by the defendants in its reason for decision is so that the tribunal can firstly state if it accepted the explanation in full or in part and secondly show that the penalty (if any) fits the crime. As pointed out earlier, but in a slightly different way, justice must not only be done but be seen to be done. In this case its not possible to see.
Furthermore, I am not suggesting for one minute that there is not serious problem if a person refuses to insure themselves (or even if they do it accidentally) but in this case due to the deficiency in the posted document it is impossible to tell if the actions were deliberate and malicious or merely accidental. I stress again it is not proper to impute motive without further information and to do so could justifiably lead to action by the Large's. I am sure you would not like motive to be ascribed publicly (and incorrectly) for some of your past actions.
I hope this makes it clear that I am not a defender of the Large's only appealing for public decency rather than the simple lynch mob reaction that seems to have been so far put. Even in guilt they have rights. This whole point would not have to have been taken if the reasons for the decision were more forthcoming.
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 3:47:14 PM
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It takes two to tango and the way that I was approached when this topic first went online by one of the accussed, was wrong. It was stated that they did not do anything and the topic needs to be with drawn, which is what I did, I moved it to an area incase the original poster wanted to know why I removed it.
I withdrew it from the public eye until I was told this is where the stuff is to backup the original post. Not only am I getting the flack over the topic, but so is, HMRAV, MV and MA from certian people for making this further public notice, and my understanding is that this is why MV made the findings public, otherwise it may of dissappeared and would not of had the "lynch mob" feel about it.
I have also noticed that Peter has partly registered. Lets see what he has to say to the topic when he fully gets onboard. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 4:45:25 PM
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| I understand David, thanks for the comment. I think its up to the Large's to make their position clear and then we can all make judgement. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 7:48:05 PM
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I thought the 'trial' was held by MA/MV? The punishment was handed out, however it seems it wasn't accepted by some people!
I suggest the tribunal was the place for any discussion - it's over now!! Why are there to be further repercussions? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 8:38:07 PM
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I thought that it was clear that it was all was over with, and they acepted the repercussions handed out to them. (only after the appeal)quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Why are there to be further repercussions?
It is also good to talk about so others do not make a mistake.. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Pete Large
Level 1 Member
Victoria
1 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 9:52:46 PM
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G'day all, Firstly let me state that I am one of the thousands of people that David says reads this site but does not post. This is because I find that when things are posted on web sites they can be taken the wrong way. I also prefer to stay out of the political side of things.
Anyway I would like to try and explain my side of the story as best I can, without adding any fuel to the fire (which I thought had gone out). The charges that MA had issued were for racing without a valid licence and without insurance. We paid $750 to appeal the fine and then we sort legal advice. Whilst we were with the lawyer he phoned Brian Payne of MA to discuss the matter. He stated on the phone that it was just a trivial hearing and that legal representation was not necessary,that was our mistake. We should have had legal representation. Anyway in the end they accepted we had valid licences but no insurance. At the hearing we presented the panel with our insurance documents. In my mind the was no question that we had insurance. My insurance was for 3 times the amount that MA pays out. Unfortunately MA did not agree that the insurance was valid because mine was purchased through the same company that takes care of my super. I even have a cover letter that explains that I was covered for motorcycle racing. When speaking to Brian Payne after the decision had been handed down he said that the issue was with 'repatriation' insurance. This is insurance to fly your remains home if need be. We did not have this. I did not even give this a thought. Why would I want to be flown 80kms. I guess it was to fly back to Scotland as that was the licence we were using.
So to rap up we had
A valid licence
A clearance
Our own insurance
So David that is the reason I phoned you direct. I still believe I had valid insurance, it's just MA's decision that we didn't. Also I did not want to stir a pot that had settled.
Now for the reason all this happend in the first place. As some of you may know we like to race at the Isle of Man when we can muster up the money to do it. This is the reason why we had Scottish licences. We had raced at the IOM that year so still had valid licences. You are not allowed to have more than one licence at a time. I guess we could have handed them back and got MA licences but we were going to use them again the following year so it seemed to be a lot of mucking around for one race.It works out a lot easier to do it that way than to try and use a MA licence over there. This year after paying the fine I was going to try and use an MA licence and get insurance through the FIM but the FIM insurance did not pay out enough, as was required by the promoter of that race. Hence the reason for the pommy licence.
So to answer OLDONK we did not set out to try and "save ourselves some money and create a risk". In fact I think that statement was uncalled for considering you only knew one side of the story. Also what's this bit about not doing scrutineering? I pushed my bikes through with everyone else. NO QUESTION!
A big lesson has been learned through all this. Although it was dissapointing at the time and expensive, I have moved on. As I see it I still have another 30 years of classic racing in front of me. No point holding grudges forever. It will only eat you up if you let it.
If anyone wants to know more please feel free to call me direct on 0437527439 day or night. It's much better for the sport as a whole to have ALL information first hand than to speculate on hear say. I hope this answers more questions than it raises!
All the best Peter Large
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 09:28:45 AM
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| Welcome back. This is scary stuff. I can only suggest that next time you want to race an I.O.M. event you get an Irish licence "to be sure to be sure". See you at the track. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 6:28:21 PM
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| It is 'scarey stuff' John. I suggest we all need to recognise that our sport might be in a tenuous position. There has been at least one race meeting in Eastern Australia which has been insured from sources outside MA. At the moment we have representation with circuit owners and promoters through MA, and it's not a bad arrangement. However It wouldn't take much in the way of an incident where there was lack of control, to tip the whole system on its head! For what was involved in the dodgy insurance stuff, it just wasn't worth it! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 1:57:20 PM
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To a large extent the application of Health and Safety
Policies which the HMRAV are considering will put in place a check system to show that the club is trying to apply checks and balances.
the upcoming obligations for officials at club events will be to show a system is in place to try and run with common sence. We are investigating the application of a policy which in reality is a "common sense' check list, just to ensure the club officials can run things smoothly. Issues of foriegn licences can be covered easily if the process is in place to accept the necessary clearances and documents associated with them.
The major issue with insurance is that it needs to comply with a particular FIM edict.
The HMRAV now has a note in the supp. regs for racers with foriegn licences to appraoch MV at least 1 month before the event to get things in place,in time prior to the event. This should help everybody get it correct. With the chance now of more overseas riders competing it is clear things need to be clearer for all involved. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 08:26:13 AM
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Peter, I am interested to know more about the race meetings that dont accept the FIM minimum levels of insurance, since I get over there myself and so far I have not had a problem.
Which meeting were you having the trouble with?
Do we have a case of two levels of requirement facing us?
We are tld the aussie insurance meets the FIM edict, does it? |
Edited by - oldonk on 16 Sep 2007 6:02:15 PM |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 2:06:19 PM
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| I received a text document from David Large in e-mail today about this. I will not put it up, but wait for David Large to place it online. I feel it is better for David Large to inform us his side of the MA Judicial Committe findings... |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2007 : 3:06:42 PM
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Oldonk, I believe there has recently been a superbike meeting at Qld Raceway which was insured under Australian Autosport Alliance, a group set up as an alternative to the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport (CAMS), and perhaps other 'controlling bodies'. The situation concerning insurance isn't perhaps very clear to competitors, particularly regarding the likelihood af a major claim being met. For someone to race totally without insurance, it places the whole sport at risk. If someone does a 'Wayne Rainey', and is not covered, we could all pay a big price. I'm glad to see that HMRAV is taking a systematic approach to managing the risks involved in racing, it presents a very good picture to the public.
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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