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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 2:42:54 PM
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Patrick Fletcher has explained that the data logger is operating now [ costing about $9000 ] and he must supply to the Shire of Mitchell, each Monday morning the results of the noise measurement. He must also give a report on what action was taken against any noisy machine on the day. He has sent 3 machines home already. The bottom line is not withstanding the GCR's, we MUST meet the EPA permit figures end of story. He added some interstaters have tried all sorts of arguments about Phillip Island allowing higher noises, or even rolling back the throttle as they pass the machine location. They are taking a big risk.
We are potentially playing games that would result in the track being closed.
Patrick strongly advises we get machines measured before any race meeting because he will be obliged to expel any noisy machine from the Southern Classic. He does not want to create the situation of having 50% of the field sent home because they have done nothing about testing.
It seems a static test for 95 dB at 30m is pretty close to reality or 102 dB at the pipe. Apparently most exhaust shops may have this equipment. Daryl Hiddle or David White are the people to speak with about the matter.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 3:57:14 PM
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LE Velocettes anyone? Seems Captain Killjoy is out to get us. Just what noise limits are we supposed to comply with? Little by little our freedoms are being eroded and if we don't make a stand soon we will have no freedom left. I like bikes to sound as they were made to sound. The noise is part of the sport. If an historic race bike has to look authentic it should also sound authentic. There is nothing sillier than a classic race bike with a dustbin size silencer instead of a reverse cone megaphone. We only have a couple of historic meetings each year at Broadford and I think we should seek special dispensation to make historical noise at these meetings. Am I the only one?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 4:42:59 PM
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I do not agree that noise is such a part of the sport that we can ignore the EPA requirements.
The alternative is to have the circuit closed permanently if people cannot accept the new restrictions, which have been in place for 20 years and ignored for that time. The fact we ignored it is part of the reason we are now under the hammer.
MV have advised the delegates last night they will not tolerate noise beyond the limits and will send bikes home.
I dont see it as an attack on us, the public are just sick of noise and the fact some riders did not give a damn for 20 years.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 10:02:56 AM
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John, I did not suggest that we should ignore the E.P.A. requirements, I suggested that we should seek dispensation for historic bikes to have a higher limit than modern bikes. The E.P.A. allows this for road bikes so why not for race bikes? I will be at Broadford on Tuesday and hope to catch up with Patrick during the day.
If I do I will certainly raise this matter and will post what I learn here.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 10:47:24 AM
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Ok I thought you were promoting igoning the limits. We have spoken with patrick about genuine original bikes being excempted. He feels such an pplication may suceed, but only for bikes in their original form. It appears as though original Manx Nortons, running to the old rev. limits is in fact below the limit, a big problem being prevalent today is that the rev limits have been extended and so they are noisier now.
A great can of worms.
I wonder if there any bikes in their original form? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 08:36:51 AM
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Have anybody in NSW had to produce a certificate to prove their bike is within the MA noise limits?
Has anybody heard of it becoming a requirement? |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 11:08:39 AM
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No it is not a requirement in NSW. No there has been no discussion on it becoming a requirment.
Where do these silly rumours start? I'd be going back to source and asking some serious questions of the person who said this, they need to show some proof. If it was said in the pits or a pub then I can understand somebody being wrong. It is was said in an official capacity at say a SCB meeting then I think an official retraction would be in order. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 10:25:04 PM
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Well lets wait and see what develops. Now is not the time to do anything other than get a solution to meeting noise requirements.
Its my role to try and ensure that bikes are under the limits. At this stage we think most machines are under but we do not know for sure. Some testing is to be undertaken. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 09:31:40 AM
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Hi people, sorry to report that the news is not good news. After talking to Patrick I can confirm that he will have to submit to council (E.P.A.) the print outs of the noise levels for each day of a race meeting.
I can also confirm that there are rumblings to have every bike independently noise tested and certified.
This, although sounding like the simple solution, may in fact not work. It could lead to the situation where you borrow a silencer to get the required certificate of compliance and then revert back to the original exhaust.
One of the great problems that I see is that very few of us know how much noise our bikes actually make. This is further compounded by the fact that we are talking about two different test procedures, 500mm at 45 degrees for E.P.A. and exhaust shop tests and a ride by test for 95dB(A) at the tracks. This is further complicated by the fact that there is no uniform level set. Each track has to abide by the noise restrictions imposed by its local council. It is obvious that this issue is not going to go away, we are being hounded into "complying". How I hate that word! What we need is positive leadership to ensure that we do not get strangled in red tape.
We need evidence of how noisy our bikes are, particularly those with provenance, so that we can put our case to preserve our racing as it was meant to be.
Does anyone have a multi cylinder 2 stroke that was designed to snap crackle and pop through unsilenced chambers? It would be handy to know the noise level of such a bike. Without knowledge we are lost.
Your thoughts?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 09:46:31 AM
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John, there is no problem of which test to use. We are obliged to test to the MA standard not the EPA one. That can be done readily by a tester.
The real issue is that I believe most bikes are under the limit, and there are no MA accredited noise testers within the motorcycle fraternity.
Advice I am getting is that there may be course in July 2008, but that is not confirmed.
In a nice world I would hope we can use the datalogger at Broadford to help riders aND IF YOU are over the limit you must come off and remidy the situation.
I would expect a heavy hand would be used if people play with mufflers after testing. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 4:32:13 PM
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Unfortunately there seems to be confusion about this noise issue. The E.P.A. delegated responsibility for venue noise to the relevant local councils who impose their noise limits. Nothing to do with M.A. or the F.I.M. at all. The limit that, as I understand things, we must abide by at Broadford is the ride by limit of 95dB(A) (could be 96)at some 30 metres from the track,as has been the case all along. As I understand it the readings that Patrick will have to submit to the council are not readings of individual bikes but of the overall noise levels taken over the course of a race meeting.
Just to further confuse things we have the notion of bikes being independently tested being bandied around. This is where the M.A., F.I.M. and E.P.A. levels would come into the equation with E.P.A. accredited testers performing the tests at 500mm from the exhaust at 45 degrees as per our manual and the E.P.A. test requirements. 102dB(A) being the limit under this test method.
This would, most likely, mean that every race bike had to be taken to a tester and made to comply in order to get a certificate of compliance. We don't know how noisy our bikes are now and it is no good saying "I think most bikes would be legal". We don't KNOW. Also, what if a bike passes 102dB(A)at 500mm but fails the 95dB(A) at 30 metres test? Which test will prevail?
The great danger in this is that the decibel scale is not a linear scale. Very few of us have any knowledge of what we are talking about. I enlisted the help of an audio engineer when all this stuff first started to rear its ugly head. What I discovered was scary. It is not a simple case of turning the volume knob down one click. We need an audio engineer to advise us (M.A.) on what we are getting into before we voluntarily stick our collective head in a noose.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 10:53:02 AM
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Well said John. I agree that there needs to be some clarity around who wants what?, what standards are to be met? and who is regulating all this?
Without recognised and reliable testing/monitoring, there can be no assumption that "most are OK".
Can I suggest that consideration is also given to Audiologists, particularly those specialising in the occupatiopnal arena, and/or Occupational Hygeinists? All of these are recognised and registered professionals who can provide advice and guidance in the management of noise, along with sound engineers.
How do I know this? I am on OHS professional having just completed my Masters in Occupational Hazard Management. (Sorry, a bit of trumpet blowing there)This issue is not exclusive to motor sport.
Cheers, Tony (Sidecar #20, the Pink Pig) |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 09:10:31 AM
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Tony, congratulations on getting your masters. A great achievement so blow your trumpet as loud as you like, noise is the subject of all this. I have heard that some interstate competitors are now scared to come over for the Southern Classic lest they get banned for excessive noise. This is a ridiculous situation and needs to be resolved as a matter of urgency. The future of our sport is in danger. It is my intention to put together some words for David White to urge him to set up meetings with interested parties to try to arrive at a uniform noise level that does not jeopardise the future of our sport.
We cannot allow history to be modernised to suit a few killjoys.
I will need your support in this matter so will post here after I have put my words together. Get ready for action boys.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 09:25:40 AM
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HOLD THE HORSES
We do not need more action beyond the current progress my committee has ben negotiating.
This is not an MA issue it is a planning permit issue and completely independant of MA rules.
We are working to get a solution for all parties.
Please do not open up other bushfires, one is enough.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 12:37:10 PM
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Come on John, this is not ASIO business. It is the future of the sport we love.
What are you and "your committee" doing behind closed doors? What are you trying to achieve and how are you progressing? Whatever you are doing you are doing in the name of the sport so I think we would all like to know. M.A. is the representative body of the sport and should be leading from the front on a national level. We need uniform and realistic standards across the country so that a bike that is legal on one track is legal on ALL tracks. This will never be achieved by negotiating at local level.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 1:00:24 PM
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| if i remember correctly in the fist instance ( when the road race track was first built)the "township" of b/ford were on about the noise level some k/k's away from the track, so i think it will come back to the "overall" noise from the "track"..not so much as from each bike.. |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 6:02:21 PM
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| Give me a call yes we are doing stuff to get a result we can all live with. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 09:54:39 AM
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SOME OF YOU BLOKES MIGHT THINK IT IS FUNNY TO TRY AND ARGUE NOISE IS NOT A PROBLEM, OR THAT THIS TEST OR THAT TEST IS NOT RIGHT. THE FACT IS WE MUST GO PAST THE DATA LOGGER UNDER THE 95Db LIMIT.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF TELLING YOU TO ACCEPT THE SITUATION.
I CAN SAY YOUR ARGUMENTS HAVE MADE IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCUSS THE SITUATION TO GET TESTING DONE.
WE ARE NOW IN A SITUATION WHERE WE MAY BE BACK TO FIRST BASE.
YOUR BLEATING HAS MADE MY POSITION TO GET TESTING COMPLETED ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.
PLASE JUST SHUT UP AND ACCEPT REALITY, I HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH TIME TRYING TO HELP RACERS TO BE UNDERMINED BY PEOPLE SEEKING DISPENSATION.
AM I ANGRY YES!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 09:13:17 AM
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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