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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 7:10:28 PM
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Hello
I'm new to this forum and I am probably asking this in the wrong section.
I'm contemplating building a CB350 race bike for classic racing in QLD. I've had a look at the Classic rules in Motorcycling Australia handbook but I am not quite sure of a couple of aspects. For example, a 1989 CB350 (Period 4)has drum front brake - I think from about 1971 the same model bike had a disc front brake. Can the 1989 model use the later model disc brake setup?
James
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Edited by - Ben on 13 Mar 2009 08:35:45 AM |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 07:27:21 AM
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In postclassic 1963 up to 1972 disc brakes are ok so u can fit a disc brake..
please only submit your post once... |
Allan Greening |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 10:41:18 PM
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welcome to the 350K club James ,plenty of good info for your perusal in the saga,good luck with your 350,will it be ready for the nationals in Nov?,(plenty of time mate  ),cheers mick |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 10:52:15 PM
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Thanks for the welcome Mick.
I'm just at the stage of stripping the base bike and sourcing the bits and pieces I think I'll need. I race a number of other bikes in north QLD - mostly modern. Thought it was time to do something 'historic' after attending the island Classic this year. |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 09:05:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by matcho mick
welcome to the 350K club James,plenty of good info for your perusal in the saga,good luck with your 350,will it be ready for the nationals in Nov?,(plenty of time mate ),cheers mick
Certainly hoping to be ready way before November Mick. More like June if all goes to plan.
A couple of questions, what carbs are generally used for racing the CB350? Also what shocks are suitable - Hagon or Ikon??? Finally (for today anyway) curious whether there's a later model/better/legal set of forks to consider?
James |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 10:57:11 AM
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Hi James,
To echo Mick, welcome to the land of the 350K4!! I am a bit sheepish after blowing mine up at PI a few weeks ago, but slowly picking up the pieces.
Most of the info you are after is in the saga (as my bike is known!)thread, about the building of my 350 over a couple of years. It is in the cb350 racers promotion section.
In regard to carbs, Mikuni's, and Amal mark 2 or mark 1 are the go. anywhere from 30 to 34mm, whatever works. Most people use 32 or 34.
A 35mm front end can be fitted from any period 4 machine and the triple clamps from a cb500/550/750 can be made to fit to take the 35 tubes - or just use a complete front end from one of these machines. However, the 33mm are reported to work well until you really start getting the thing moving (Mick uses 33mm standard forks, I use 35 and I can't catch him! - more down to me than the bike )
Good luck, look forward to seeing you on the grid. |
Try Everything |
Edited by - Ben on 09 Mar 2009 11:00:18 AM |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 7:31:08 PM
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Hello Ben
Thanks for the info'.
I think I recall seeing your bike at the Island Classic. Have you sorted what caused the cam failure?
A couple more questions - you guys describe the CB350 as 350K4. Does that designate model# as in 1974? The motor I have now is a 1969 - is that an issue?
I'm a bit ahead of myself with this question but if you go total loss, how much of the stator side of things can you remove? Timing marks there would need to be left I assume.
James |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 12:57:08 PM
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It was parked in the pit most of the time!!! Best guess is the cam was fatigued - slowly getting it sorted....... I need a sponsor!
350K is probably a better terrm, I use k4 as mine is a 72'. They run from K0 to K4 (69 to 72), yours is a K0. All parts from your K0 will be generally interchangeable with later models except the rockers and camshaft - which are different in later models and must be run together as a set.
Have a look at the following for models.
You must be logged in to see this link.
RE: Total loss - you can remove the whole lot, including stator, once you have timed it. It is keyed, so easy to put back on to check timing if required.
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Try Everything |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 2:17:38 PM
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| I know i'm dumb "but" is a CB350k4 a 4 cyclinder and a CB350 a twin I have a couple of CB350 4 cylinder bikes which i THINK are CB350K4's ?? |
Allan Greening |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 2:19:23 PM
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| also wot is the first year they were made in Japan, r they good for Classic up to 1962? |
Allan Greening |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 5:26:11 PM
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Well their you go..I'm WRONG again
The Honda CB350F is a four-cylinder, four-stroke, 348cc motorcycle based on the larger versions of the day and was thought of as Honda's "one-up" to the other motorcycle companies. It was manufactured in Japan from 1972-74. Soon after production was discontinued, it was replaced by the CB400F..
So i can use it for a "Postclassic" bike
anyone got a race tank to suit?? |
Allan Greening |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 6:53:28 PM
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| Matcho Mick may well have something to suit, Allan. Gary Shepherd has a 350 four running which sounds superb, and I think Kim Krebs' bike may have originally been a CB350F. They go well, but sound GREAT !! |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 8:48:34 PM
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Thanks very much for the information Ben. Much appreciated. I am starting to get an idea of which way to head.
Should I continue to ask questions here or should I email members direct.
Couple of questions for today. I want to muse a disc brake. Can I use CB450,500,550,750 forks and I guess that would mean using those models hub,axle and clamps. Can any of those model clamps be used in a CB350 head stock?
I have read a little about cam shaft bearings. Are they considered a desirable upgrade? Can they be used in a 1969 engine?
Thanks
James |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 08:47:57 AM
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I have changed the title of this thread to be 1969, as I assume it was 1989 by accident, and have deleted the duplicate thread.
James, keep posting on here if you want to, it is good for the community to see that new bikes are being contemplated and developed. It also provides a guide to others!
If you have not already, check out the eurospares site, it has a great document to get you started on the cb350.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Yes, get the cam bearing upgrade is worthwhile. You can go the custom route of using roller bearings, or buy and off the shelf needle roller conversion. The standard cam journals are reported to cook under race conditions.
RE: Forks - this will take a bit of "suck it and see" to work out. People use all kinds of combinations. None are a drop in fit - but they are vaguely right.I got cb500(or 550 can't remember) triples fitted with a bit of messing around. Best advice is to head to a friendly wreckers and test what fits.
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Try Everything |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 7:18:42 PM
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Hello again lads.
What's the consensus - hardened valve seats or Avgas/Methanol?? |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 11:40:34 PM
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I'd be voting for avgas as a bare minimum. many are gobbling methanol. Shell Racing 100 is readily available, and nowadays you no longer need a Leaded Fuel Passbook to buy race fuels, merely your race licence. So once again, thanks for nothing, MA.... |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 07:58:23 AM
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| MA was not to blame it was EPA..ma looked after our interests |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 07:20:06 AM
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GD66 why have you "canned" MA about the fuel?
Think before you rubbish the wrong group, it ruins your credability.
The Eviroment Protection Agency chnaged the ruling, and from what I hear it is a better ruling than the old one, so perhaps a vote of thanks to the EPA and an apology to MA on this occasion is required. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 8:34:42 PM
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| My Leaded Fuel Passbook was issued by MA on July 4, 2003, and cost me from memory $20. It has over five years' worth of signatures in it, and has never, ever been checked by anybody, from MA, the EPA, or any other august organisation. To me, this would appear to indicate that it was no more than a grandstanding exercise, and a quick grab of cash to bump up the coffers in the 2003 financial year. If anybody's credibility's at risk, it's not really mine. I bought the passbook, and did the right thing. But when neither issuing signatory on the passbook has ever made any effort to view, check, monitor or gather info from it, then surely it's been a waste of time ? |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 7:19:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben
I have changed the title of this thread to be 1969, as I assume it was 1989 by accident, and have deleted the duplicate thread.
James, keep posting on here if you want to, it is good for the community to see that new bikes are being contemplated and developed. It also provides a guide to others!
If you have not already, check out the eurospares site, it has a great document to get you started on the cb350.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Yes, get the cam bearing upgrade is worthwhile. You can go the custom route of using roller bearings, or buy and off the shelf needle roller conversion. The standard cam journals are reported to cook under race conditions.
RE: Forks - this will take a bit of "suck it and see" to work out. People use all kinds of combinations. None are a drop in fit - but they are vaguely right.I got cb500(or 550 can't remember) triples fitted with a bit of messing around. Best advice is to head to a friendly wreckers and test what fits.
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 7:51:08 PM
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Hi Ben/Lads
Thinking about the camshaft bearings, is there somewhere in OZ I get this conversion done? The only people doing it I have been able to find so far is a company called Megacycle in USA. I'm located in Airlie Beach north QLD so there's bugger all here locally in the way of engineering shops!
Also - I have been thinking about using a Todd Henning high comp pistons but I'm wondering what cams I should try with them. Alternatively, Megacycle (USA)seem to have great assortment of cams but I'm not sure what pistons I could use with their cams. Any suggestions?
As a matter of interest, while there is an active road racing scene here and at Townsville, no classic racing at this stage. However, our Club has decided to include a class for Period 4 so suddenly there's interest in Classics and there are already 4 bikes being built right now that I know of. Others are watching with interest and I think that within 12 months we'll have a grid of around 8 to 10 period 4 bikes. The lads are keen to get down rto Brisbane for a claasic meet there in July (I think it's July). |
Edited by - jvdairlie on 26 Mar 2009 7:52:45 PM |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 09:55:38 AM
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Hi James,
Sounds like it is beginning to move along. In regard to the cam bearing conversion, I can measure the specs on mine when I have all the parts together - but you will still need to find a friend who is handy with a lathe or send it off to a machine shop (if they are not known to you it is often not worth it!! v. expensive at times).
If you don't have access to the skills, there are other options. You can have the standard alloy journals machined and install a phosphor bronze bush for the cam to run in - most cam/head shops will be able to do this one for you. Reports suggest that this works well. Otherwise, if you have the $$, cappellini in italy and hales honda (www.haleshonda.co.uk) have a bolt on needle roller conversion.
Alternatively, Buff at Todd Henning may be able to assist should you buy the pistons from him. He can sell you a megacycle cam and pretty much anything else you need (not sure if he has a cam bearing conversion but certainly worth asking as I doubt he is running a standard set up).
As you would have seen on the saga thread, I have bought lots of parts from them, including pistons. They all work well, pity I only got one run out of the pistons before the cam broke
Just about any pistons you choose will have to be set up, or modified for the cam you choose. Even with the todd henning pistons I had to cut .040" extra depth in the EX valve pocket to accomodate the cam I was using. Unfortunately, things are rarely just "bolt on" - I wish!! If you email Buff at todd henning, let him know you have spoken to me, he is great to deal with a very fast at getting parts out. You never know, you may get a package deal
Good luck.
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Try Everything |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 2:27:38 PM
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Good shooting Ben, no point going nuts with a wild cam, then having no clearance to the valve pockets ! As far as I recall, when we did the needle roller conversion we just spun off the projections on the standard end caps, and fitted needle rollers that were standard sizes in both id and od. One trap is to make sure you take the end float out of the equation, otherwise the cam is able to wander left and right a few thou, and will machine away the little seal behind your points assembly, and oil will escape, which is not only undesirable for good lap times on left-hand circuits, but unwelcomed by fellow riders.... , this can be achieved by experimenting with suitable shims to eradicate most of the end float.
JVD, if you're stuck in Airlie Beach (swine!), then I think you'll find you can get away with using the stock end caps, as long as you renew them each and every season. They tend to get cooked, and ovalise with a lot of use, but after all they last for years in the stock bike, so as long as you replace them each year, AS WELL AS YOUR CAM CHAIN, then I'd reckon you should be fine. And don't use the clip to connect your cam chain, get a peenable link. Change the engine oil every meeting, and the rest should be hunky-dory.
CB350s don't need much more than some 66mm pistons, a cam, some carbs and a set of pipes, and you're off and racing at reasonable cost. Then some swine on a metho-gobbler steams past you on the straight, and the red mist descends..... |
Edited by - GD66 on 02 Apr 2009 2:30:08 PM |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 1:00:28 PM
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Thanks Ben and GD66
I have been in touch with Buff at Todd Henning and will be getting pistons etc from him. I had also asked him about needle rollers and to my surprise he said that he did not see them as essential although he runs them in his engines.
I am going to use electronic ignition and now it's just a case of deciding which one. Has anyone experience with the one available from Boretech? Any recommendations?
James |
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 08:23:00 AM
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| The analogue PVL ignition for twins is very good and reliable. Also pertaining to potential cam breakage problems on the CB350 Bernie Saunders and others in the UK will only use new steel billet cams to avoid the very kind of breakage Ben had on his engine. Jerry Kooistra |
Jerry |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 10:46:57 AM
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Welcome Jerry!
James, haven't heard anything about the bore tech ignition - I think it is a total loss unit so you will need to retain the battery.
The megacycle billet cams would be a great option if you can afford it.
I use the PVL, works well so far. |
Try Everything |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 4:30:48 PM
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Thanks Jerry and Ben.
I think I read somewhere that you can't get the billet camshaft for the 69 model engines. Might have been on the Megacycle Cams site.
Looks like PVL is the popular way to go for ignition so I'll rob the piggy bank and get that from Buff as well.
Jerry, were you running PVL on the 350 and 500 Mandy was riding at the Island Classic?
James |
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 05:53:40 AM
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| Hello James, Yes we run that model ignition on both bikes. At PI the 500 had huge carburation problems due to rubbish in the carbies as it turned out.Long story. Flossie found it almost impossible to ride. Jerry Kooistra |
Jerry |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 06:28:34 AM
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Another questions Gents
Can anyone tell me how the oil filter on the CB350 works? Strangest looking setup for a filter I have ever seen. Does it even have a 'filter' medium?
James |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 2:25:32 PM
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Ah yes mate, we've all sniggered at that one. However, for a centrifugal spinner, it actually doesn't work too badly. There is a Mickey Mouse mod on the Capellini website that uses external leads and a cartidge filter off something like a GN125 Suzuki, which looks fabulous but like the rest of their stuff, is far from cheap.
However, if you change your oil after each meeting, and clean out the barrell of the oil filter as often as possible, you'll find your motor will get by okay. As far as peace of mind goes, fresh oil is by far the cheapest insurance you can buy for your race motor, only needs about 1.75 litres per fill, so don't be shy, and don't skimp ! I dump mine at the mid-point of three-day meetings like the nats or the Island Classic just for safety's sake. Your oil gets discoloured fairly quickly from the clutch plates, and I don't see any need to have that dirty stuff swishing round in your race motor, so keep it fresh and it'll be fine. |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 3:22:35 PM
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Thanks GD66
Now I understand. Geez Honda have done some weird things over the years. Oval pistons, V5 engines, oil filters with no filter, torsion bar valve springs etc etc etc.
Came across an oddity over the weekend when I stripped my donor motor. It's a 1969 lump and it has 66mm pistons which are marked STD. From what I have been able to gather the standard 350 bore should be 64mm Buggered if I know how 66mm pistons could be standard - maybe standard from some other manufacturer.
Thanks anyway GD66 - your help (and that of all forum members) is much appreciated.
James
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