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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 11:03:15 AM
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John Clancy has asked that we consider a rolling start for sidecars, he saw it used at the National Titles in Qld.
Do you see any problems? Machines line up in formation with the pace set by a solo in front.
Start / flag person decides whether all is ok and drops flag or holds red up continuously and the machines do either another lap or if somebody is in the wrong grid spot they are disqualified from the results.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 5:44:17 PM
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John, I can see an advantage in that a rolling start would avoid burning clutches,as is the case when starts are held for too long.
How would we determine our correct grid position while on the move? (Easy for top 5 - 10, but for those of us that tend to get a view from the rear it could get a bit confusing.)
What about a time penalty rather than disqualification from results when in the incorrect grid position?
Cheers, Tony. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 7:07:07 PM
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I got thsi response from Ron Marten
> Ron&Barb <sidecarsixty@bigpond.com> wrote:
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> John , after a short think about it I can see so many problems that I
> would have to say I was personally against it.The question of
> baulking,how many laps before the starter just let the race go anyway,
> how fast should the lead solo be, how many laps before the actual start,
> is the out lap the start lap ? Imagine the wingeing afterwards ,you
> swerved ,you baulked, you jumped , I was'nt ready ,I was still coming
> around the corner,etc etc...Besides the start, a clutch start that is ,
> is one of the best times and one that requires a slightly different
> skill, the skill of clutch control, the only time that that particular
> skill is really critical in a race.
And here is my first response
"Ron thanks. I prefer a clutch start also simply because I like them. But the question was asked and I do have a few answers for you.
- Machines must be information two abreast
- Line up starts towards the end of the warm up lap
At Broadford everybody would be around the last corner and in a straight line
- "I wasnt ready", this I imagaine is just stiff the same as it is now
- Nobody can jump because the officails can be watching and this stuff is done I think with some cars and it seems to work
I will get John Clancy to put more down on paper with his answers.
Peeno as for determining grid position, we all know waht row we are on I guess we just work that out the same way.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2009 : 8:34:41 PM
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| gokarts use this method to start all there races,seem to work for them,why not try it |
125 alliance |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2009 : 11:04:46 AM
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John,
I wasn't able to attend the Oz Champs in Qld, so this topic was a bit of a surprise. Are you saying that rolling starts were used at this meeting? I've reread the sup regs..."all clutch starts", no mention of a change in the final instructions. MoMs state clutch starts unless otherwise detailed in sup regs.
So if they did happen when was it decided. Did they use them for championship starts or just the non champ races.
While it doesn't change the topic or a discussion of the concept, it would seem to me that an Australian Championship meeting isn't the right place to be experimenting. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2009 : 11:19:32 AM
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| As I said at the start, John C bought the concept up. I am chasing him for more information |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Matt Morgan
Level 2 Member
Victoria
89 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2009 : 2:12:37 PM
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| Peen, determining the grid position is easy. You're at the back. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2009 : 4:28:42 PM
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Hohoho, chortle, chortle Matthew!Just remember, you were at the back with me at Winton last year. Ah but...... new bike, bigger motor, more experience, we'll see?
BTW, as a relatively new team, we'd be interested in the rolling start concept, but clutch starts are also fun. Cheers, Tony. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 3:43:58 PM
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From Brendan Ferrari Clerk of Course
"Conceptually there is nothing wrong with this (in fact it might encourage a couple of two strokes out of retirement). Rules 12.12.1.2 and 3 in the 2009 GRCs cover the flying start
I would like to see a rolling / flying start because I seriously believe is is a much safer way to start a sidecar race!
I would see the field file out of pit exit in grid order.
Pole position sets the pace, and uses their passenger to confirm that the field is reasonably bunched.
As the field comes into the start/finish straight the pace increases and the start is by the starter waving a green flag at the field.
### Special rule #1.
No overtaking before the start finish line. [The timing transmitters need to be in grid position when field crosses the line the first time!] (Exception - a breakdown where a rider does not continue)
### Special rule #2a.
Spacing between the competitors is not allowed to be greater than 5 metres. [Cannot have 1st & 2nd on grid in same team and 2nd guy slows whilst 1st guy accelerates. Electronic timing would identify cheating, and penalty will be "Ride through" of pit lane at 60/40km/h. Applies to both team members if Clerk of Course deems there to have been cheating.]
### Special rule #2b.
Spacing between the competitors is not allowed to be greater than 5 metres. [Cannot have a sidecar sitting back and trying to time a 'launch' so that they pass just after the start finish line. Penalty will be "Ride through" of pit lane at 60/40km/h. Applies to team attempting to gain a benefit.]
### Special rule #3.
If the starter considers the field too spread out, a yellow flag is waved at start line and the field goes around again.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Jeff
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
32 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 3:00:06 PM
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I raced at Lakeside last month at a Queensland Sidecars meeting and we used rolling starts.
Some points I learned that day:
*My chain needed no adjustment throughout the meeting, where normally every race or second race.
*If you are an even number on the grid you cannot go until the corresponding odd number goes or it's a ride through for you.
*If people dawdle their way to the start you will be sent around again and this is taken off your race laps. In our first race the first five rows were lined up neatly but the last two outfits were way behind.
*I got very nervous travelling in formation, as if someone braked or seized there was not room to do much but hit each other.
*We used no solo or safety car up front, just the safety car at the back, like a lot of meetings seem to do now. The pace was set by the pole rider.
Although it was a novel idea and interesting to do for a one off I don't think it would be good all the time. A bit like Le Mans starts PCRA have for their Sidecar Endurance race. I like clutch starts and am quite practiced at it, to change to rolling starts would take a while for some to get used to and this may cause hazards initially.
Jeff  |
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littledoug
Level 2 Member
Victoria
35 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 4:03:22 PM
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Wots wrong john are you beaing a sook, if you have more horse power than the clutch is designed for then you have to expect problems. But if we have to change lets go the tradional method and go push start or LeMans type starts ,it would be fun until a passinger gets left behind or run over i have seen some old films and the passinger looks like a pin ball wen he is left lying on the grid.
Because of the varing speeds across the field my vote is not to change
Doug |
batteling on in the face of shear adversary |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 4:07:38 PM
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Doug, you will see I am only passing on a request as is my job as Secretary.
I stated I prefer clutch starts, But others may have a different opinion.
The question has to be asked and discussed. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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littledoug
Level 2 Member
Victoria
35 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 08:01:16 AM
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Just "stiring the pot" John a bit of freindly banter  |
batteling on in the face of shear adversary |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 08:26:18 AM
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Oh!! Doug I never see those pots.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Matt Morgan
Level 2 Member
Victoria
89 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 7:24:28 PM
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Oh bloody charming! I flatly refuse to push start bikes, that's what Kathy's there for. I'm exhausted getting my leathers to zip up, so running for the rotten, sodding bike is out of the question. I'm odds on to get on the wrong bike at any rate.
quote:
Originally posted by littledoug
Wots wrong john are you beaing a sook, if you have more horse power than the clutch is designed for then you have to expect problems. But if we have to change lets go the tradional method and go push start or LeMans type starts ,it would be fun until a passinger gets left behind or run over i have seen some old films and the passinger looks like a pin ball wen he is left lying on the grid.
Because of the varing speeds across the field my vote is not to change
Doug
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2009 : 09:05:16 AM
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Matt we are talking and rolling / flying starts, not push starts.
But now I know you will not push a sidecar that may give us all an advantage at the track!!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2009 : 11:39:02 PM
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My first response is - fix your clutch John, don't try and change the rest of the world to suit your circumstance!!!! And no, I don't accept that it cannot be fixed.
And I certainly did not see any rolling starts in Qld!!! Unless some of those behind us were rolling when the lights went out!!!
And for me, definitely not! A clutch start is just way too much fun to do away with. I mean, what is the point of doing a practice start in front of the thickest crowd of spectators if all you are going to do is roll across the line when the lights go out.
And as somebody else said way back up there in this string, the clutch start brings in a number of skills (including reaction time) which all add to the spectacle both from a rider's point of view and from spectators point of view. Bogging down, lightning starts, tyre smoke, too much wheelspin and going nowhere, are what spectators talk about when they refer to the start. The commonly stated, "Did you see that...!" would simply disappear into boredom if we went to a rolling start. And finally, I agree with whoever said it would be fraught with issues requiring more rules, more arguments and more silly stuff that really has little to do with racing.
If you want to do anything introduce a maximum 'hold time' for starters. That will stop them fiddle farting around on the grid and make them work out where they are before they go out...
Stay with the clutch start.
Geoff
Sidecar #30 |
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