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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 08:45:10 AM
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Well, where is he?
It has gone awfully quiet lately and I, for one, miss having him around.
If I only wanted to hear my own opinion I would just talk to myself. I reckon I would soon get tired of that.
D.G. you haven't banned him again have you?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 2:14:01 PM
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| JF, no I have not banned his account. He has not logged in since the 4th September for some reason. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 8:50:37 PM
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Who cares where he is. He is so out of touch its a joke.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 09:59:59 AM
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Alan Warner, racing in 'periods' was something invented by people like HMRAV because they had no real appreciation what actually happened before 1973. It doesn't mean that the format of race meetings should be fixed in that paradigm. I've suggested an alternative which might actually make our sport more prmotable, and bring a few lurkers out of the woodwork.
Apparently there was a move to reintroduce decent capacity classes at Oran Park last week end, and brought a favourable response. The following was put up in Mad Dog Forum, so if I'm so much 'our of touch', so are other people:
Hi all,
After spending the last few years chasing unlimited bikes around on my 350, i cant express how much fun last weekends race format at Oran Park was, mixing it with 350s and 500s from p3,4 & 5. All the periods seemed to mix well,the fast guys all up front as usual no matter what class they were in,and every one else mixed up behind.
Everyone i talked to seem to like the race format,spectators could compare same capacity bikes racing together,and to top it off, a great variety of mixed races( singles,twins...etc).
Anyway i hope this format is used more often,even with the mixed races for two day meets.
So getting back to the topic,i reckon dividing classes into capacity is better than dividing into periods.Pistonbroke
New Babbler
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:03 pm
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 08:20:11 AM
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Welcome back Al.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 08:11:53 AM
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| G'day John. I found the post by 'pistonbroke' pretty interesting. It seems to show that the development of decent capacity classes 'cross period' could be a good thing. Perhaps HMRAV might consider doing a series of 'invitation races'. I think if I was invited to run in a Formula 750 TT class race against other 750 singles and twins, I'd really like to be there. It'd be the first time I ever got a fair shake at a motorcycle race meeting! Even when I used to race Allpowers B & C grade in the 60s and 70s, my bike was always dramatically outclassed. That doesn't mean I didn't get some good rides, but in the end I was racing a 500cc featherbed Triumph against Z900s, H2s and RD350s! Bring out your P3 and P4/P5 750 Triumphs and Nortons, as well as your P5 750 Ducatis, and let's have a go! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 09:19:10 AM
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Greetings Glen et Al, yes I too was happy to read that someone had at last put the sacred cow out to graze and got on with organising a proper race meeting.
Unfortunately the class that causes the greatest problems with racing by capacity is the unlimited class. Anything over 500cc and under 1300cc gets classed as unlimited. There is more disparity there than in racing 125s in the 500 race. I have never understood why people wanted to race any bike of over 500cc when world racing had an upper limit of 500cc.
All they did was cause bloody trouble.
Truck racing anyone?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 10:15:43 AM
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wrongggg.
the HMRAV run 600cc in P5, 750 cc in P4, we ran 750 cc pushrod in Classic and P4 but bnobody really took any interest to find a bike that suited so we did not increase entry numbers.
After the trouble we have had trying to separate Classic 350 and 500 and then the 125 bunch, groupds are best to come to the committee with a package they have worked out. That way we will know something is ready and the riders will ahve done something to help the committee. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 10:47:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
wrongggg.
the HMRAV run 600cc in P5, 750 cc in P4, we ran 750 cc pushrod in Classic and P4 but bnobody really took any interest to find a bike that suited so we did not increase entry numbers.
Well, that's what I'm referring to.
Odds and sods complicating something that was so simple. 125, 250, 350 and 500. That's what racing was at world level and it worked perfectly well until buggered up by those who couldn't leave a good thing alone.
Those who thought that bigger must be better.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 12:48:55 PM
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| Years ago I was talking to Bob Beanham in Modak, and he said he couldn't understand why anyone would want a bike over 500cc capacity. At the time I had a 650 Triumph with all the hot stuff in it, and I thought 'what would he know?' After all he thought a LE Velo was a good thing, and used to ride one to work! He had a 500 Inter motor in his window for 35 pounds, and said to me 'you should buy that', but I knew better. He even wanted to sell me one of those 250cc Parilla production racers, but who'd want a 250? I reckon I must have been a real smart kid! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 12:55:55 PM
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| John Daley. Perhaps there is no need to jump in off the deep end with the capacity class idea. It might be a good go, if we ran an invitation feature race for one new class only at each historic meeting. I'd love to get a ride in a cross period 'Formula 750 TT class' which embraced all periods - no two strokes or multis, ony four stroke twins and singles 350cc to 750cc! Perhaps you might run it at the Austin 7 meeting at Winton next year? |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 2:01:03 PM
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How would you limit the bikes?
If 2 strokes or multis were competitive in the era why not allow them?
This topic seems to be heading towards a feature race with time based "bracket racing"; perhaps using the times set in the current "era" category races earlier in the day?
Maybe with a 2nd "feature" race for the next fastest bracket of competitors.
Bummers
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 08:15:54 AM
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| There's a good reason to run two strokes and multis separately. A 250cc twostroke twin on alky will cream any 750 four stroke, and an H2 Kawasaki on alky would be ridiculous. Multis and two strokes came on the scene in the late sixties, and changed the face of racing. When we run in 'periods' those bikes are more common in period 5, so we get a bit of separation. But we still get the situation where four stroke singles and twins are always 'also rans', and races where the leaders lap the tailenders after two laps. You cannot promote that, or get anyone to put it on TV, so it limits where the sport is going! If we make the distinction between 'TT' and 'GP' bikes and run capacity classes, we should get closer more interesting racing, and be able to promote it more easily. I take your point about what actually happened 'in the era', but we cannot recreate history! The truth is that in the era, we ran capacity classes, and graded races. You'd wait all day at Calder for two rides if you had an allpowers bike! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 08:26:37 AM
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| Bummers, it's interesting to walk around the pits at an historic meeting and look at the bikes between 351 to 750cc four stroke which might be eligible for a Formula 750 TT class. You'll see a lot of guys who ride really well and get nowhere fast in 'period races', but there are a lot of them! It'd be really nice to give them the opportunity to run against similar type bikes, on a 'level playing field'. Then it really comes down to the rider. Those P3 Norton twins are often as quick as most p5 Ducatis, but they never get the chance to prove it. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 08:33:23 AM
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When you talk about 'limitting the bikes', do you mean keeping the numbers down? I haven't often seen full grids at historic meetings, and in the old days we ran heats for certain classes. The 350 and 500cc GP classes would probably need heats and a 'final'.
P.S. In the old days, if you won a final, you got a can of oil as a prize! Or a cheque for five dollars. |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 08:59:16 AM
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quote:
about 'limiting the bikes', do you mean keeping the numbers down?
Not at all - the more the merrier. Aren't you suggesting we limit the bikes to pre 70s, no 2 strokes no multis?
Why not just have a couple of "bracket" races based on the fastest (or average) lap times from previous races or a Qualifying session, for all comers?
Timing generally isn't an issue these days with electronic lap timers.
That way the TT bikes would be "competitive" with the GP bikes.
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 12:11:51 PM
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Why don't you just request a class for owners of 750cc fourstroke twins who have a beard, a limp, and may or may not have an interest in lexicography ? Surely the best way to try for a new class structure is to shoot the breeze with similarly-mounted competitors after a good dice on the track ? Then you can lobby them to support a new option, as outlined by John Daley above. But all this chest-beating while you're waiting for classes to evolve in a manner that suits you, so you can actually venture out from behind your keyboard and onto the racetrack, isn't going to get it done, and you're wasting your time and ours. Are you entered for the Southern Classic ?
Nah, didn't think so.... |
Edited by - GD66 on 18 Oct 2009 12:12:55 PM |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 8:58:00 PM
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The US WERA have some interesting Rules to equalise racing classes: You must be logged in to see this link.
See Chapter 11 for "Vintage"
Very specific lists of models eligible for each class & what alterations are allowed. |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 08:11:45 AM
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I suggest that when we get to making a set of rules as comprehensive as the WERA, we've lost the plot! They'd have to be the biggest turn off! What interests me is the way they describe their rights to 'tear down' someone else's motor if they so desire. Years ago Stan Bayliss won a junior sidecar race at Sandown with a Honda, and there was a protest. He simply said 'you're not measuring my bike' and wheeled it away.
There is only a couple of minor rule changes that I've suggested - making the distinction between 'TT' and 'GP' bikes, and forgetting about 'periods'! Capacity classes for similar TYPE bikes must be an improvement over our current procession.
GD66 - no I haven't entered for the southern classic, for the same reason I walked away from racing in 1973! |
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