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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2009 : 4:25:29 PM
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I have to ask, are we the only ones to have our historic eligibility rules set by the national "controlling" body?
I asked the question of the ACU and was advised that in the U.K. it is left to the clubs to decide which bikes are eligible for their events.
I tried the F.I.M. site and could find nothing relating to historics.
In the U.S.A. it seems to be left to the clubs.
Does anyone know if any other country has national rules?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 12:58:53 PM
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Not sure, but in England it is a mess with two major controlling clubs and different rules.
I dont actually see that our system is damaged, at least we get consistancy with machines and dont get manx disc braked machines, sure my sidecar is way past reality but overall I think its not too bad.
My own club has its special rules as lited below generally
- 650 sidecar class
- 836 Sidecar class
- 600cc cut off for P5 solos,
- Class C solos P3
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 5:16:42 PM
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It is my understanding that in the US, the *rules* for Vintage Superbike racing are very strict, and are actually set by the AMA (not left up to individual clubs). The restrictions extend to actual models, based on engine configuration.
This may only be the case for AMA-sanctioned events (ie the Big Ones) - I can imagine that the smaller events run by smaller clubs, the *rules* may be a bit less of an issue. |
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2009 : 5:42:06 PM
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The situation in the US is that the AMA has no direct role in the rules. Rules for "vintage racing" as it's called here are set by individual clubs such as AHRMA, WERA AFM etc.
Of course for modern bikes the AMA was responsible for setting the rules, but they screwed that up when they sold the whole shebang to DMG. But that as they say is a whole other story.
One of the differences between USA and Oz is that while there are regional clubs, the big clubs (AHRMA and WERA have national series so they set rules which apply nationally.
AHRMA and WERA have different classes but it's generally possible to ride bikes built for one series in the other series - but not always competitively. The fundamental difference between the US rules and MA rules is that US rules are designed to have bikes with similar performance in the same class.
For example their cut offs by year make more sense (to me at least) and they generally do not allow 2 strokes to run against 4 strokes of the same capacity in the same year cut off.
AHRMA's Historic Superbike classes are based on the AMA rules of the era represented, so they can limit technology creep a little.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, 2 stroke technology that we can access is far more advanced than it was back in the day, but the advances in 4 stroke technology are less advantageous. Even the FIM realized that they would need 600 4 strokes to put the old 250 class out to hay.
I suspect that MA is the only organization that still allows them to compete on a equal capacity footing. And I'm not attacking them for that. I was heavily involved many years ago with those rules and they were appropriate at the time.
But times change and it's probably time to start looking at where Historic racing is going and at ways to envigorate it.
Richard Nowson |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2009 : 3:18:54 PM
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The fundamental difference between the US rules and MA rules is that US rules are designed to have bikes with similar performance in the same class.
For example their cut offs by year make more sense (to me at least) and they generally do not allow 2 strokes to run against 4 strokes of the same capacity in the same year cut off.
Never let it be said that the Yanks are stupid! Even the FIM MotoGP uses rules that run 800cc fourstrokes with 500cc two strokes! What we do in Australia is ridiculous, for some people it must all be about the easy win! |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2009 : 3:57:02 PM
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Well that's a little harsh. The rules were created a long time ago and I well recall meeting down at MA central when I was on the eligibility committee.
At that tome the world was split into two camps and both had valid points. On one side were what we might call Temporal Purists. They wanted to keep things as they were in 1962 with no updates.
On the other side were the Ten Yard Mob who basically held that as long as it looked period it was probably OK. That approach favored Electronic ignitions and belt primaries etc.
That fight went back and forth and we worked out a solution that was basically acceptable to most people.
But all that was back in the late Eighties about the time I became HMRAV resident and took over from Bob Mclennan. Since that time, technology and time have marched on. I can't get much more power out of a sixties 4 stroke because I was already using every computer and dyno tool available.
With two strokes the whole world changed since then and even on an old 3 port design I can now get almost twice the HP that we managed back in the day. That's not to say that we can do better than say a Kel Carruthers at the time, but there is so much good software today to work through the numbers that playing field is no longer level.
It's not because people wanted easy wins or because MA are lazy or whatever other conspiracy theory we can concoct. The rules were appropriate at the time, but they have remained essentially static for earlier periods while technology has tipped this on its head.
You can never get the rules 100% perfect but it is probably time to engage MA in a constructive discussion on how the rules might evolve over say the next two years. Give people room to move and to plan and to have their say.
There are many ways to initiate the process, so why not say it started here and invite input. Draw up a set of draft rules changes and explain the logic.
There is room for all voices, but not everyone will get what they want. Time to engage that democratic process and it starts with discussion and exchange of ideas and treating everyone with respect.
And that includes MA HMRAV etc.
I floated this idea more than once - as a club HMRAV could work on a revised set of rules and is quite capable of running a race according to those rules. Make sure that racers are invited to provide input before, during and after.
Maybe a list of proposals could be tabled and invite comments for say 2 months and analyze the results and go back with a tweaked set that makes sense. AHRMA GP, Formula and Superbike class rules might be a good basis for comparison - or use the rules that AMA used at mido Ohio which were drawn up by WERA.
Change like this takes work and commitment. Who would like to step up to the plate?
Richard Nowson
CB72 #69 back in the day
HMARAV past president (long time ago)
AHRMA Aprilia Cup, CB160(GP200), CB175 (GP250)), TZ375 (BOT 2S) etc
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2009 : 6:31:04 PM
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Thanks for joining us Richard.
My current proposal for change is to go back to racing by capacity.
See proposal under Southern Classic elsewhere on this site.
I circulated a questionnaire at the Southern Classic and sadly the response was woeful.
From around 200 competitors I got 5 returned, 3 in favour and 2 who expressed the opinion that they had no opinion to express.
Apathy running riot.
I suppose, if I were a politician, I could claim 100% support and a mandate to go ahead.
I will push this idea in the hope that H.M.R.A.V. will have the courage to give it a try.
I invite everyone to give it thought and express an opinion.
In essence, 125s race together regardless of period, others race by capacity, P2 with P3 and P4 with P5. Each capacity (except unlimited) can also race in the next higher capacity class if they so wish.
This should encourage people to bring more than one bike thus swelling the grids.
Any thoughts?
Oh, for those worrying about P6 confusing things, stop worrying.
Current thinking is that P6 will run with the "modern" clubs.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2009 : 11:29:25 PM
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| It's now 40 years since I started racing. How many 'periods' is that? What are we going to do with 'period 6' when 'period 10' comes along? Looks like the sport is coming to an impasse. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 06:45:31 AM
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There will, I'm sure, be a natural process of attrition.
People like us will be considered dinosaurs in years to come.
I've been accused of being a Luddite and a member of the flat earth society so I might as well be a fossil too.
The writing is on the wall already with H.M.R.A.V. in Victoria and the P.C.R.A. in N.S.W. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 08:07:21 AM
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It is certainly true that those of us that grew up in the fifties and sixties are getting towards the end of our racing careers (that's about as nice a way of saying it as it gets).
That does not mean that the sport we love should die, but it means that we have to encourage others to pick up that torch and carry it and over time the mix of periods will change.
One of my sons has raced my TZ350, but that's two periods later than my old CB72, so it can be done, but he is more likely to add a more modern bike to his table than an old one. That's just a fact of life.
But it doesn't mean that Classic racing is dead. What it has to do is to evolve.
I'm not so sure that all 125's in the same race would work, but it might be worth trying. There is no reason why we should not allow people to "bump" into a later or higher capacity class.
We currently have a version of the old capacity classes that stops that and maybe that would be a good place to start. Allow riders on bikes from one period to bump into the next capacity class up and/or the next period up. So a 250 P3 rider could also ride in P4 250 or P3 350 as long as they were different races. And if they are a combined race, the rider can only be placed in one capacity/period and not in multiples.
That might allow for more rides and more bikes on the grid.
It took me a while to get to grips with the AHRMA 1968 cut off for their equivalent of P3 and it works because it allows all the Seeley/Rickman etc frames that raced with our old motors into the mix, but it retsricts 2 strokes on a Performance Index basis.
It actually allows unit construction brit bikes into the same class as pre-units but that seems to work because it gets lots of Triumph twins out there.
In the US there is no "unlimited" class in quite the same way as Australia, so Honda 4's etc are restricted to 750cc in the classes they run. I like the big bore bike class in Australia, but it probably needs to be tweaked a little.
With a 750 limit in the Formula class (pre 73) it's mainly XS Yamahas and Triumph T120s with a few Commandos.
There are classes for big bore bikes in the US too, but the mix is different and I think the OZ version has more potential as a crowd pleaser and to draw in new talent.
What we absolutely have to do is to stop moaning about the end of the world coming. It takes work to create something and it takes almost as much work to keep it alive and vital and that's our role.
We can either sit back and watch it whither and die or we can overcome that inertia and get to work. There are no shortages of bikes, riders or good ideas. Our job is to create an atmosphere in which they feel welcome and is fun place to be.
People are attracted to positive energy and stay the heck away from negative energy, so let's get positive.
Australia has some of the best tracks, the best weather, some of the best riders and a whole lot of clever people. We just need to tap into that and create the buzz again.
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 09:47:41 AM
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Richard, my reason for suggesting all 125s together is simply that there are not enough of them to share around.
At the recent Southern Classic we really pushed for our own race and mounted a campaign to get entries.
We managed to get 4 P4 and 8 P5. We usually get 1 P3 Bantam but this didn't turn up. All the bikes entered were 2 strokes as far as i know.
Prior to this event there was considerable discussion on this forum regarding the proposed format which had the 125s spread all over the place by period rather than by capacity. (See discussion under future race meetings/PROPOSED PROGRAM FOR SOUTHERN CLASSIC 11/8/09.)
We might have had 2 more, one was out injured and my bike is not yet finished.
I am trying to develop interest in the class, particularly to get more 4 stroke participation. This, of course, runs foul of our periods by date of manufacture rules which place most of the available 4 strokes into periods that were dominated by 2 strokes. My argument is that the type of bike and the technology is far more important than the date it left a factory.
I will keep trying.
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 02 Dec 2009 10:10:00 AM |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 10:49:26 AM
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John,
I'm not knocking that capacity class suggestion. Anything that gets more bikes out is a good idea.
Just thinking out loud here, but how would that combined class compare to the bucket class and could you tweak that to get bigger grids with a mix of bikes?
How about a "combo" class with say modern buckets and 125cc 2 stroke oldies. They should be pretty evenly matched. If buckets are not usually at the SC, it may be a way to add a few more bikes.
You could run it as a handicap event if necessary or start the faster bike in a second wave after say 10 seconds or whatever is appropriate.
It could be the cheapest class on the planet.
Or allow any CB160/175 Honda to come and play and find a new name for the whole thing - like say GP200.
Pre 68 200cc 4 stroke
Pre 72 125cc 2 stroke singles
Pre 72 125 twins with restrictions (or not!)
Post 72 buckets according to their rules.
What would that look like?
It might need some work to make it "equal" and to avoid any one bike dominating unless it's because it is the most available.
It's slightly different to the original idea but may turn out to be viable. CB160 racing in the US is the biggest race and the closest racing. This takes that idea and makes it more suitable for Australian conditions.
I think you have a good idea and with a little work it might just fly. The key to success will be FAIR rules and a lot of hype and enthusiasm. Don't let naysayers scupper it.
Cheers mate
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 8:41:19 PM
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It might be simpler to take the guidelines for the periods, make up a few potentially equally matched classes by accepting applications from competitors to get their bikes included. An 'equalisation committee'?
I'd love to race my Norton against unit and pre unit Triunphs and Nortons, and the Ducatis can be included too! How about a decent 750 class? It's not rocket science! |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 01:18:01 AM
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| It might be 40 years since you started racing, but it's 36 years since you stopped. Even by your own admission, you've said on here you packed it in after 1973. What difference does it make what classes are used ? You don't race. |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 05:51:48 AM
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GD, that may be true (I don't know) but AC's input is still valid and it's another voice to add to the discussion.
Personally I like it when people start to see something they might like and get excited about a possibility of change.
I didn't start racing until 78 and have been involved one way or another since then. i don't race very often either but I am still passionate about the sport and getting people out and enjoying the same fun that got us hooked.
It's always good to see people getting involved and making a contribution. All contributions are gratefully accepted. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 07:40:15 AM
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| I actually raced in historic events in 2002/3 at Winton and Mt Gambier where I got a couple of placings (there was nobody there). It cost me $700 to race at Winton, and I found myself in a race against about 8 1100cc CB750s. I ended up midfield. Why would I bother to do that? I look at Historic races and I can see lots of bikes that would compete well against my Norton, but they're all in different classes. The Triumphs and atlases are in Perod 3, the commandos are in period 4, the ducati 750s are in period 5. What is this - 'GIGS WEEK'? |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 09:37:59 AM
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| My mistake. I still don't understand what your obsession is with winning. I drag my sorry butt over from WA twice a year to race in Vic. It costs me a damn sight more than $700 each time, and I know I have no chance of a win. But to me, the aim is to get inside the top 10 at the Island, and top 6 at the nats. As well, at the Southern Classic P4J is tipped in with FE600s, so I know bloody well I'm going to be up to my eyes in a cut-and-thrust with a mob of LCs, a madman or two on RD400s, and the odd TZ on my long-suffering but hard-working CB350....no show of a win, but the challenge of trying to nail as many from the other class as possible. This year, I beat all the LC 250s and a few of the 350s. No wins, but an enormous buzz from a weekend of elbow-to-elbow racing, punctuated with a couple of days of hilarity in the pits with friends old and new. In historic racing, you're only ever racing yourself anyway, getting the chance to get out and give your old bike a good gallop. Yeah, you might win one or two, but it's incidental. It's all about the RIDE ! |
Edited by - GD66 on 03 Dec 2009 09:40:29 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 10:34:36 AM
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GD you've hit the nail on the head.
Only one can win but everyone else can have fun. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 08:50:59 AM
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still don't understand what your obsession is with winning.
My obsession is NOT with winning. It's about getting a reasonably priced competitive ride. I don't expect to turn up to an historic race with my Norton and get absolutely blitzed by a bunch of guys on 1100cc CB750s which are effectively 70s AMA style superbikes! Having fun is about being in the front bunch in a race where the bikes are reasonably matched, and it's down to rider skill. This stuff where the tailenders are lapped after one lap is just BL00DY SILLY! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 08:57:53 AM
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| I'd like to point out something you can observe for yourself. Rod Tingate's mate has built a copy of Rod's old 60s Rickman Metisse. It's absolutely beautiful! It's a 750, and will run in period 4. Watch and see how long it takes him to get burned off by Rex's mates who will blitz him every time he races. If he lasts one year I'll be surprised! |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 10:36:57 AM
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That's probably true and Allen is right that it's feeling that you could be competitive. I don't "need" to win either, but I see no point in racing if I don't think I can get into the top ten or better. If I do well that's great and if not, I can live with it, but I lose interest if I know that I am completely outclassed and that the rules are stacked against me.
So the answer is to look at the rules and work out how to break that nexus. Maybe the Rex's are dominant because they are just the best developed bikes on the track, and maybe it's also that they are well ridden and Rex has developed them within the rules.
Not all bikes will be winners and there is no way to create a set of rules that makes everyone equal, but a little more equality might be nice. Some bikes will always be created equal.
The issue here is to sit down and work out what might work better. That probably doesn't involve throwing all the rules out and starting fresh. It probably does involve a few changes though to break the rigid Age + Capacity and developing a more complex Index of Performance approach.
Who has a copy of the You must be logged in to see this link. rules for comparison or AMA Vintage Days You must be logged in to see this link.
They are worth looking at to work out what you would like to recommend. Start with one class or period and tweak on that until it makes sense and work from there
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