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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Nov 2002 : 3:46:28 PM
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Somebody has previously written to MA/MV asking for single event competition licences to be allowed for all historic meetings. It has been suggestted if we had these licences, more would turn up to at least two meetings per year, AND RIDE. As a newby in the administration of racing I am aware of the need to present a good argument when proposing changes. So if we are going to present a case for change to the licensing system we need to present a good argument, so what have we got to prove such a plan would be viable.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2002 : 4:58:34 PM
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| I think that if this is to be the way to go some rules should be in order, Person must be a member of a MA affilated club for at least 6 months, and such ;licence should not be used for State and Australian Championship races(a full Licence would be needed) A safty test to be had such as is now required for full Licence and such fee 's to apply, and a max of three (3) races on such Licence per year. The idea of taking a licence,by joining a club on the day is very Dangious practice as safty MUST be the word of the day! And such licence is only for HISTORIC racing. |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2002 : 5:22:02 PM
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| The licence could have provision for punch outs so it can only be used the agreed number of times. This may be the only way to police it easily. Would you include Historic Champs in the exclusions? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2002 : 7:35:14 PM
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I don't understand why the licence usage has to be 'policed'. If the cost of the licence is $70 per meeting, it means that anyone having more than four rides per year might as well have a full licence.
I suggest we have to look at what the licence provides. I believe tha major part of it is insurance costs, the rest is MA/MV administration. Surely we can estimate the true costs of licencing a rider at each meeting and charge slightly in excess.
The single event licences currently in use are supplied in books of ten to clubs at a cost of $30 each, I am led to believe. You can't get them unless you are a member of an MA affiliated club, so what's all this stuff about having to be a member for six months? You can get a full licence straight away, as long as you are a club member.
I believe there might be a competency issue with single event licences and perhaps they should be restricted to people who have previously held a full licence.
I suggest there might be some benefit in running Historic Meetings as 'Interclub Events', so the single event licences can be used. In any case surely it's worth discussing with MA/MV?
Best Regards, |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2002 : 9:50:55 PM
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| Interclub events havea restriction to 6 or 7 clubs only being involved. A study of the number of clubs represented at recent HMRAV meetings shows up to 15 clubs are represented. For reasons unknown, riders do not seem to want to change their allegience by chnging clubs to meet the rule restriction. There may be another way around this issue but thus far I have not seen it presented. Regards |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2002 : 11:22:53 AM
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The concept of running Interclub Racing only involving 7 clubs, is a bit beyond me, I dont understand where MA are coming from with it.
I suggest MA is STILL A UNION, even though they sell themselves as the controlling body for motorcycle sport in Australia.
Historic Racing is OUR GO, so we should have some say in how it is run.
I suggest it's important that we achieve some kind of consensus amongst the riders, about how we want the whole thing to operate. We have to have clear ideas about what we want regarding licences, eligibility and promotion.
Perrsonally I suggest we need eligibilty rules that are internationally compatible. Whether it's Inca or AHRMA we need to be able to compete on a fairly equal basis.
The licence costs should be 'user pays', why should I pay a full comp. licence when I only ride two meetings per year and my budget can only extend to $4000, a rider on a modern with sponsor often has a budget of$40,000 per year, and rides up to ten times? Why should I subsidise his racing?
As far as promotion is concerned, I believe that the exercise of bringing international riders to Australian Historic meetings can only help generate interest. We need to look at what COULD BE, rather than how things were done in the past.
I've only seen one meeting in Australia where there were a lot of international riders. It was held at Laverton in about 1978. The crowd size was phenomenal, however the promoter didn't take full advantage of the situation, and I think actually made a loss. (Every man and his dog got in for free).
Best Regards, |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2002 : 4:37:46 PM
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| Without looking at the Club Secretary's Handbook I can advise that Open race meetings have a different fee from interclub meetings. So I guess they have to set a limit to draw a line betwen the two. If we stick to the idea of creating an argument about licence structures we may get one. But I have been informed that for a variety of reasons, most insurance claims are coming from one event licence holders, so it is logical to expect them to be looked at carefully. The bottom line is costs. So how are we going to present an argument that Historic licence holders can cover their costs with a lower fee? Any ideas out there? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2002 : 4:40:20 PM
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| As for Historic's subsidising moderns with licence costs, is this a fact? What are the real details, does anybody know? How could we find out? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2002 : 1:27:35 PM
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| This quote was sent to me at an earlier date "Also on the one event licence topic. I believe that people have their heads in the clouds on this one. Even the most expensive licence (yep they do vary in price from state to state) is the cost of one decent tyre and chain. One event licence holders are in the majority (I believe) in accidents and insurance claims and with all that's happening with insurance I wouldn't be surprises if they disappeared. People have to asked themselves what is a reasonable price to race. Historic cars pay more than $300 for a licence" Another viewpoint |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2002 : 3:57:48 PM
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| I have had some evidence presented to me which shows that a busy modern rider, but not an International A grader, can realistically expect to attend 12 meetings per year. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2002 : 1:31:24 PM
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| From NSW has come a suggestion that the basic licence has a fee, then each time you race an additional fee is paid. Also, another thoughtvthat was passed on is to consider ways to improve the value of the current licence, which obviously translates to increasing the # of events you can use it. The HMRAV had this in mind when we proposed the ridedays at Broadford. What are your thoughts? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2003 : 4:00:42 PM
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| With the publishing of the new 2003 race licence charges there has been an increase in the comments to me as HMRAV secretary, who incidentaly has nothing to do with the licence costs. However, a suggestion has arisen that the Vic. Historic Management committee may try and create an argument for a 3 event licence. Accordingly, anybody is invited to present a case at the next meeting on Tuesday 21 Jan. 7.30 pm at MV. Hilton St., Clifton Hill. If you come, you will be required to have a written submission with ideas and not abuse. Any submision must have credability so Mv /MA will consider it. As a busy person I simply am not interested to hear anything other than facts.If you make statements they must be able to be backed by proof, at this stage we may only be able to establish a loose frame work for a submission in the future. Personally I would expect any submission to take place over a few months. If you wish to send me anything in writing for presentation I am happy to take it. My email adress is secretary@hmrav.org |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2003 : 11:50:38 AM
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John, a three event licence for $100 would be great. Also I suggest that single event licences should be available for historic events for anyone who has previously held an MA/MV/International licence (no current club membership required), however a medical certificate may be necessary.
Hope you will present my comment to the meeting. Best regards, good luck, and thanks for taking up the cause.
(We might be able to run the Historic 500cc GP over three events).
Secretary
Winton MOtorcycle Club |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2003 : 11:58:17 AM
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| If it's true that Giacomo Agostini is coming to Phillip Island and the 23rd to 25 th January, it must be the best kept secret of all time. I find it incredible that this event hasn't been publicised to the hilt. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
79 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2003 : 10:21:43 PM
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There is a big hole in this arguement for not getting a full licence, or is it just an excuse not to race. The issue to be considered is safety.
Is it really the best thing to licence people to come out on the track once or twice a year? If it is they should be limited to novice races.
A full licence is cheaper than a pair of tyres, best advise is go get one and have more fun and ride more. |
Al Kidd |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2003 : 05:40:12 AM
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Al, At the Seniors meeting at Mt Gambier both this year and last, there were about 130 riders we don't see regularly at Victorian Historic Road race meetings. One of them was an old A grader who used to be one of our top Victorian riders. (Steve Oszko). In fact in the early sixties, he was the only Victorian rider on a Manx who could get near Ron Toombs on the Henderson G50.
Steve made the comment that the big advantage of the Seniors meeting was the fact that you didn't have to have a full licence (and go through all the B*ll**** to get it), you can enter on the day, pay your licence and race. It's very convenient, and an incentive to ride, you don't have to plan your race year ahead, particularly if you only want to ride a few times. (you do have to pay your club membership).
So let's talk about safety! Both last year and this year the ambulance didn't move at the Mt Gambier Seniors meeting. One rider (George Heggie), a well known and respected sidecar rider, crashed and got killed in Darwin a couple of months later than the last Seniors meeting, he is suspected of having a heart attack. Poor old b*gger, I hope I go that way - doing something I love.
Most retired A and B graders (and old C gaders who raced regularly)don't lose their skills or reflexes. People like Steve can ride rings around most of us even on their bad days (he still rides a Monster, and a Bimota Ducati on the road every weekend, and a few years ago fell off at about 120mph in a Knoxfield housing estate). He is a very smooth rider, something some of you young guys need to learn about. He also prepares his bikes to a standard which would put most of you (and myself) to shame.
If you are saying that it is unsafe to ride only once or twice a year, I'd say that's garbage. Anyone who raced a few meetings in open competition should be able to get up to speed after two practice sessions at a meeting, and a tuning day once a year. If you can't, your bike isn't set up right.
I suggest competency isn't an issue here, health, freedom from heart attack is, and there is a need for regular medical checkups for all riders. Competency is an issue for C grade riders which hasn't really been addressed by MA. A licence test which doesn't have a an actual rider/machine test in it is very suspect, and is probably the reason insurance costs are so high.
I attend Winton Motor Raceway every Friday, and there are plenty of people about who don't know the basics of track etiquette, such as leave room under and over you if you are going slowly through corners, and the fact that if you are first into a corner, it is your corner, everyone else has to look out for you. We have had guys go under other riders in corners, and the first guy has 'come down' and leant on the guy passing him. Some of the fellas are pretty hopeless.
While we are talking about safety, most of the guys who would be granted one day licences at Historic meetings, raced when we used pudding basin helmets, drum brakes, bad handling frames and T1 compound triangulars.
These days even historic bikes handle and stop(particularly bikes ridden by old A graders)and the tyres are unbelievable compared to the old days. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2003 : 05:58:59 AM
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Perhaps I should say where I'm coming from with this single event license thing. I raced Allpowers C grade for about fifteen years in the sixtiss, seventies, and eighties. I rode about three times a year, and I did alright considering the machinery. That was when I was married for the first time, had three kids, manage five laboratories, with thirty two people in Dept of Defence.
Now I'm divorced, remarried, retired on half super, and I work two days a fortnight in Melbourne (I live in Benalla). Otherwise I spend my time playing motorcycles. I have a happy life (it would be happier if I could race 12 times per year).
Racing last year cost me about $7000. Where is the money coming from? My situation isn't sustainable. To race more times a year to get value for my licence is out of the question, and I'm certainly not going back to full time employment to support my addiction!
As far as the licence being the cost of a couple of tyres, I'd rather buy the two tyres! It has come to that choice!
The charge of $350 per annum for a full licence to do historic racing two times a year is unrealistic, and unfair. It is worth about $100 for the insurace risk and MA/MV admin fees. I'll use the spare $250 on my expenses for attending race meetings, thank you very much. It would just about pay accomodation for two meetings. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2003 : 4:40:11 PM
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Is there a case for one event or even any new version licence applicants to proove compentance prior to the issuing of such a licence. The rumour (to be confirmed ) is that by far the greatest insurance claims come from one event licence holders.
The commptency may be attendance at a rideday or even to pass a practical test which all new applicants even for a full licence shouls have to attend. After all, some level of ability surely is required for all other forms of competative motorsport? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2003 : 9:19:13 PM
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The Historic Management Committee on 21 Jan 2003, has decided to try and mount a case to present regarding the higher fees for National Licenses in Victoria compared with NSW which are $97 lower and SA which are $90 lower. We will argue the fact that more current licence holders may retire, shift their licence interstate or pull out of open events. Either way we will try and put a case forward for a 3 event open licence for use in all disciplines.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2003 : 10:40:07 PM
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I notice Dave: Greening has put up a poll to gauge readers thoughts on the licence issue. it would help greatly if you gave your opion on the issue. Go to You must be logged in to see this link. thanks
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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11 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2003 : 11:29:59 AM
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Sorry to go on about the UK again, but that's what I know about! A national Licence cost about $100 and we paid an insurance premium for each meeting we entered which came to about $50 per meeting. Seems easy enough!
PS Anyone going to E Creek? it would be nice to meet a few people in real life. |
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steve
Level 2 Member
Queensland
86 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2003 : 10:32:21 PM
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Hi John
I think we can hold a Queensland race!! as a few of us are going down, It looks like we are getting a few more rides because of BEARS, which makes it more value for money. They should hold a
"Inter State Series"
State against State
Combine points over the week-end!!
"Inaugural Trophy"
as like in NZ
What do the other States think??? I'm sure we could throw something together to add a bit of RIVALRY between the States, Maybe some of the Historic Clubs could toss in a few bucks for a half decent Mug to keep in the club rooms for the year of the winners!! It may just bring more racers back to show up the other states!! I sure in this forum we could come to some kind of format. What do other readers think ???
Steve "Queensland" |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2003 : 08:27:28 AM
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Steve, I'm glad there are a few more rides for historic machines through BEARS. Really apart from the recent fourvalve Ducatis, and modern Triumphs anything else in BEARS can only be considered HISTORIC.
I believe some of us should start recording lap times for historics, BEARS, and the Harley Sportster Series at the various circuits. It would help to know what would be competitive with what. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2003 : 10:46:01 AM
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| Steve I shall move the discussion re an Interstae challenge to a separate forum. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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