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Former Member
deleted
107 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 11:15:35 PM
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Perhaps its time the cut-off date for P5 was moved to be inline with N.Z. This would be Dec 31 1982
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Edited by - n/a on 04 Jan 2004 12:07:09 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 9:43:34 PM
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| Any changes to Period dates need to be presented to the Historic Committee of management for ratification by all states prior to acceptance. Just out of curiosity what is the NZ date, but I should declare my intense dislike of any cooperation with NZ. Personally I dont see any benefit of being involved with them at all. An important aspect of period 5 is that they are still only slowly turning up to meetings, we may have to encourage them out of the B and C grade meeting they must be attending now. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 16 Nov 2003 11:00:35 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2003 : 11:05:03 PM
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| We have discussed elsewher why the 1980 cut off date was chosen. Look it up it may clear your concern. At the end of it though,. everybody is effectted by what ever date, there are plenty of machines eligible from 1973 to 1980, I really dont think everybody has to race Dec. 1980 bikes just to have fun surely. Personally I race to have a good time, I dont get machinery I know can win, I just compete on what I have. Perhaps others should think about this as well. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 7:38:30 PM
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John, What's your story about not cooperating with the Kiwis on eligibility. I note in the latest classic racer that John Surtees will be at Pukekohe in February with the F type Manx, and an MV. Why hasn't he been invited to include Victoria in his trip? Don't you think we want to see him and his bikes.
These top guys (like Hailwood in the mid 70s) have a big effect on the sport's popularity, when they come here. (Although a lot of the young guys simply have no conception as to how good they actually are).
In NZ they apparently field a whole grip of pre62 spec Manxes - we can't field one genuine (to factory spec) example! Apparently their success has been due to their eligibility rules, which separate the rubbish from the genuine items!
Hugh Anderson is one of the main players over there - a World Champion should know something about historic racing- HE WAS THERE!
I suggest we can learn something from the NZ guys. They are more successful than we are at getting the Historic racing thing going! Have a look at You must be logged in to see this link. ! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2003 : 08:16:04 AM
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| Alan, I have a deep dislike of New Zealanders that would get me into trouble if they did not speak english. It goes back a long way with a series of incidents and because my dislike is intense it is important for others to be aware of it. I do not think clearly if anybody mentions NZ. I find it hard to co operate with anything with them. As for inviting them over I leave that to others to deal with, I would rather drink battery acid than help them. Bur as for Surtees etc, at the moment I dont think we have the skills or money to get it happenning, they are often not budget priced. Personally I do not accept that the New Zeals are better at Historics than us because they dont permit any Jap stuff. I believe thay are better organised and happen to have a larger range of pommy rubbish because when we were buying wonderfull, reliable and consistent Jap bikes, the NZ people could not afford to buy a stamp to place an order to Japan. Thus they still have many pommy bikes. If you dont want Jap stuff to turn up, just tell me,I would gladly retire from secretary and watch while others try and run a meeting with just pommy stuff. I think we all need to be realistic and not so high and mighty. I recall riding jap bikes whilst my mates with pommy stuff were still at home getting it oil tight, trying to find a spark or replacing a bearing. It would be hard to convince me that pommy stuff was better in the late 60's and 70's, just look what happenned to them in the market place to look for eveidence of others with a similiar opinion to myself. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2003 : 04:04:33 AM
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John, I don't believe a lot of the b*llsh*it which was written in the Pommy motorcycle press when the 750 Commando came out. In fact a mate of mine once said that the kids were buying them because their fathers said 'Nortons are a good bike'. But it seems to be a fact that a standard 750 Commando was slightly faster than a H2 Kawasaki, and handled better. The reason the old British bikes became uncompetitive in racing back then was that an H2R like Neville Doyle prepared made r*tsh*t of everything else, until a TZ750 Yamaha killed everything else including H2Rs. The four cylinder four stroke Jap bikes were much more reliable than a 750 Commando, and when the guys found out how to fit CB900 cranks to their CB750s, we ended up with Trex etc.who cack on everything these days.
I believe a 750 capacity limit for a Formula 750 class, (and exclude two strokes), would give those old 750 Bonnies, and Commandos a new lease of life in historic racing.
Incidently the first guy to build a good H2R replica, who spends a fortune keeping the parts up to it, will give Rex and the boys a real hard time! I don't think you will get the biggest CB750 in the world to beat a six speed H2R on alcohol (or even petrol). Someone should go and buy the H2R that Hari has tucked away somewhere. It was for sale a while back.
I must say I was pretty surprised when I first rode my Seeley Commando 850, it actually seems to go hard, (though it weighs b*gger all). I wouldn't have thought such an agricultural motor could get up and go like that. I just wish I could trust the handling - I think it's going to tie itself in a knot! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2003 : 04:27:16 AM
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Incidently, before Ron rode Neville Doyles H2R at Sandown, Jeff Curley was a real contender on the Stanco 850 Commando. The big two strokes finished that.
When Don Emde brought that XR750 out here in 1971/2, I believe Ron Grant was riding the TR750, and Blakey was riding the H1R - they both made him look silly, and the XR750 wasn't a slow bike.
The big change came when Hansford, Willing and Sayle rode H2Rs, and Blakey, Johnno, Doug Sharp, and Bob Rosenthal rode TZ750s. The pommy sh*t was really finished.
Actually, I like two stroke races, however I believe for the purposes of getting competitive classes in historic races they should be kept separate from the four strokes. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2003 : 07:51:32 AM
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| Al, the topic is cut off dates fro P5. Scott, as I have said earlier, work through your club, garner support and make a presentation to MA via your state controlling body and its Historic Management Commission. But make sure your have actuall support and not just winks. I have been coaught before, these bikes need to be active to get a look in. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2003 : 08:48:14 AM
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John, It seems like a chicken and egg situation. If the class isn't there first, the bikes disappear. I wouldn't know where to look for an early 80s TZ these days.
It's good to work through your club, but this forum provides a good place to toss ideas around before making the commitment through your club, to something a lot of people mightn't want.
John, I apologise if my comments make you uncomfortable at times, but HMRAV is not the only game in town. Some of what you do is excellent (particularly of recent times), some is not.
This forum provides a level of transparency to our sport that can only help. If some of our problems become public - too bad! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2003 : 6:23:19 PM
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| Thanks Alan, but at the end of the day at MA is the final arbitrator. This site and others can help garner support, but as you and I know from the aussie 500 single attempt, it is hard to identify where the support is for any change. I dont know how many times I shall have to say it but the clubs, delegates, state controlling bodies is the way to get support for any idea, once you believe you have general support. But in my experience there is a large number of riders who just dont give you any viabnle support. Look at how many wrote to MV with an alternative to the $350 licence, none. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2003 : 9:07:41 PM
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John, I believe the main problem with our sport since its inception in 1973, and before, has been apathy. Using this site to discuss ideas can help. If you look at the number of hits each subject gets, you'll realise either the guys are reading and thinking, or they just visit, don't care, and think we are a buch of old w*nkers.
We'll never get anyone to write to MA, or approach them through their clubs unless we can generate a bit of enthusiasm for new approaches to competition.
I believe it starts here. It finishes with a motion being put through the clubs, and general lobbying. Nobody should be afraid to float a new idea to improve our sport, on this site.
Personally I'm delighted when things like the 750 Pushrod class arrive and get taken on board. It's the only real change that's been made to the sport for about 30 years! And it doesn't take the idiots in MA to make it happen, it's in the hands of the promoters like yourself and Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd!
Incidently I'm still waiting for a formal response to my written suggestion to MV for single event licences for Historic Events!!!!! They don't seem to think it's necessary to answer! BL**DY UNPROFESSIONAL ORGANISATION! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2003 : 9:09:38 PM
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| By the way. MA is NOT the final arbiter! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2003 : 09:48:27 AM
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| Perhaps Al, if you keep sticking it up MA they may never answer your letters. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2003 : 1:01:59 PM
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I seem to remember sending the letter about single event licences to MA more than twelve months ago. Do you really think I'm ever going to get an answer?
I'm not particularly 'sticking it up MA', if I start doing that, I'll take a completely different approach.
I suggest it's reasonable to expect a written answer to my letter. It wasn't derogatory, inflammatory, obsequious, devious in any way. It was a simple suggestion, and it requires some sort of consideration from our UNION. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2003 : 6:31:07 PM
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| Perhaps write again, they may have lost your letter. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2003 : 2:54:46 PM
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| I also wrote to Hartwell Club, and Sandringham Club about getting Winton Motorcycle Club members access to the Interclub, and the Hartwell Club Championship. Neither of those answered either. Do you think I should write to both of them again, also? Perhaps they also 'lost my letters'? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 10:22:51 PM
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| Good one Scott, it is hard to keep everybody on the topic but keep trying. Perhaps even start something for them to play with CYA |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 8:46:13 PM
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| I agree with Scott, that the cut-off date for period 5 should be changed to 31st December 1982. This would make quite a few more bikes eligible for historic racing, without substantially changing the competition. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 6:37:33 PM
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| What is the advantage of shifting the date, other than letting you hot an existing bike up further? Would it draw more machines to the track or simply enable more later model engines in the class with no extra machines at the track? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 30 Jun 2004 2:47:26 PM |
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Former Member
deleted
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4 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 11:08:38 AM
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I reckon the cut off date for P5 could be moved to Dec 31 1981 at least. This would help guys who want to race Kwakas. As it is now they are limited to the Z1 motor, and MK2 frame. With the 81' model cutoff date the 1000J or Z1100GP (without fuel injection) could be utilised. To my understanding at the moment the hondas and suzukis can use engines, parts ect from 81',82' models as long as they are visually compatible to the 80' models. Most people would agree that those old Kwakas where a classic bike from that era and made excellent superbikes in their day!!! I am currently contemplating building a bike for P5 but am left scratching my head as to why this wasn't considered when the cutoff rule was made.
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Former Member
deleted
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27 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 09:41:27 AM
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| I don't know why there is such a problem with the Kawasaki, I have seen 3 of the 1000J with australian ID plates dated 11/1980, technically legal I believe. Also this model was raced at the WA round of the Australian Production series in 1980 by Graeme Williams a B grade rider from Vic. Another issue that bugs me is the use of latter model GSX 1100 motors, the only legal version has the rounder rocker boxes and is clearly distinguishable from the post 80 versions. Maybe the scrutineers should have a silhouette sheet for legal bikes??? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 10:20:20 AM
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Firstly, the bit about legal bikes. Your comment about a sheet is great.
Also, the log book is the real method of getting them legal. I understand if anybike is considered not kosher a protest needs to be placed by a competitor to really get action happening.
I am aware that the commissioners have been re ispecting a number of machines so it may get sorted out soon.
As for shifting dates,
The method here is to get your club to support it, approach your state body to make a submission to MA for inclusion in the annual review. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 10:58:44 PM
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i think you'll also find that the 1979 and 1980 versions or the GSX engine have 20 bolts holding the rocker cover while the 1981 and later have 24 bolts.
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There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 7:15:14 PM
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What would be the problem with moving the cutoff date for Period 5 to 1986? We'd get a lot of the old superbikes running. Personally I can't see why running a VFR750 Honda is much different to running a GSX1100 Suzuki. With these date and elgibility issues, most people seem to push their own barrow, with little thought to what might bring more bikes onto the track. It's all about 'how can I win a trophy', not 'how can I get a good competitive ride'.
The other day Mal (Wally) Campbell asked me when I thought we'd move on to Period 6? He has a Production Superbike (VFR750) which was just before the RC30s. I was also told that Rob Phillis is back in Vic, and has a couple of the old biggies.
I don't know about you, but I think I'd like to see these old jiggers back racing with some of the legends on them.
When I mentioned this to a well known promoter of historic races, he said ' I could really sell that concept, it would draw a good crowd'.
So I suggest you guys start thinking about it. I don't expect anyone with a GSX1000 to be too excited about finding Wally on a VFR750, and Phillis or Magee or AJ or Gregg Johnson on whatever, on the grid with them, but it might appeal to some. It's sometimes worth having a go at someone really good. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 10:41:16 PM
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what chance is there of this idea ever being considered?
would someone need to submit the idea to MA ?
the idea of changing the date seems good to me. it also makes the period 5 cut off date inline with the other classes too.
p4 62-72
p5 72-82
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There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 8:57:49 PM
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HHH, when Wally Campbell asked me when I thought Period 6 would come in, my answer was - If you talk to your mates who have bikes of a certain type, when you get about 12 or 15 together you can probably get your own race.
The cutoff date for P5 was set at 1979 to allow non-exhaust port controlled two strokes like my TZ350G in, and the later models with the bar over the exhaust -out. It's a purely academiic consideration. I wouldn't have a problem racing my bike against a mid eighties TZ in an up to 500cc P4,P5,P6 race. I would have a problem if I was run over on the start line by a GSX1100 or a Trex Honda.
The thing about the cutoff date is NOT to ask MA first. It's within John Daley's/HMRAV or any other promoter's power to schedule races in any format he likes as long as it's not at a championship, and as long as it's safe!
Get the bikes running first, then ask MA for the change in the championship rules. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 1:41:27 PM
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I reckon any blokes with these machines need to stand up and be counted.
I am aware the Vic. Modern Title meetings are only attracting low entriesd,I have suggestted they experiment with potential Historic classes.
So why not get on the Vic. Road racing Committee's back[ I am the Historic respresentative on it] and help me to push the idea. They want bikes, I want classes, you want rides. LETS DO IT!!!!
PS DONT FORGET TO BRING YOUR SIDECARS AS WELL THOUGH!!!!
I have started a new topic " BROGHT IDEA" to continue this discussion, can youswitch over? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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