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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2004 : 08:20:02 AM
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On the other site, You must be logged in to see this link. there has been a thread started about this proposal. It involves pommie and kiwi machines, coming to Australia in 2005. The local Historic management Committee is looking to see if we can fit them into any meetings. the promoters will be the final decison makers about the event. But here is the proposal without final approval at the momement.
"Title - International Post Classic Solo
Eligibility - All machines must fit in to the Post Classic or Forgotten Era periods as defined by the regulations of the source country. i.e, England, Australia and NZ.
Requirements - Each machine must comply with the national regulations of the source country. Ie Australian machines must comply with the GCR's for Australia, etc. No machine can adopt the best components of each national regulations and compete in this event.
Any machine entered can only score points for the country to which national regulations it conforms to."
Any constructive comments would be welcome. Please dont try and put a case to include machines outside this era, end of story.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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27 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 11:30:22 PM
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| What an opportunity for everyone to have a ride without bitching about the legality of joe bloggs front end etc. my only question would be whose interpretation of the G.C.R's??? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 08:08:45 AM
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Personally I speak my own mind here:
Roger, where's the problem? Each machine must comply with the country of origin's GCR's. Australian bikes will be log booked, I guess the overseas bikes can be checked against a set of rules supplied by the countries of origin, if you dont trust the examiners become one.
If riders choose to push the interpretations they may simply cheeze off the other competitors and cause them to not play ball. Who looses, everybody, when the races dont get support and dont go ahead.
What I dont understand in the first place is why dont people just race with the correct gear. If the cheating stopped people would have a lot more time to actually race instead. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 08:06:54 AM
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| So International Post Classic is going to be a Rex Wolfenden, Stuart Loly benefit? Both have bikes that fit 'THE RULES'! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 11:03:50 AM
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| Persoannlly can I suggest if you dont like the event, dont enter. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 6:38:21 PM
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John, that's exactly what happens, when the class becomes 'how fast can you afford to go?'. I'm glad to see that you guys are looking at the international rules. I haven't had time to have a good look at them, myself yet.
Rex and Stuart have become benchmarks for the sport. Trouble is that if you want to even be competitive in Period 4, you need to buy one of Rex's bikes. I think Rex's bikes are an excellent answer to 'the rules', but there's something wrong when the bikes in Period 4 look nothing like what was raced in the era.
If you see Les Ayton over the weekend, he and Keith Ashmore used to be known as the 'bonnie boys'. For about four years in the sixties they were unbeatable, riding 650cc Bonnevilles.
If you tried that these days you wouldn't see which way the rest went.
I'm not bitching about Rex, but we need 750cc Period 4, and period 5 classes.
Rex is good for the sport, we have a drawcard. So are Peter Guest and Keith Campbell in Period 3, however I suggest we need to look carefully at the rules.
I wouldn't want to see the sport go 'purist' as it is in New Zealand, but John Surtees commented that NZ is the only place where the bikes are raced as they were back then! So there's probably something to be said for 'tailoring' the rules to get a better product for the spectators and riders. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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popeye
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
187 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 7:10:30 PM
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| tailoring the rules leaves out a chance for development, those lads are at the top because they have the resources, me and a heap of other people will make up fields because the sport is a "sport" and everyone competes at their own level for their own reasons, I dont think we will ever see brackets in Classic/post classic but I dont think people should pack up and go home because they can't win a trophy, there is something far more important than that...............to compete and give your best .............irrespective of where you finish. As for the unlimited class sideshow, it will be dictated by who has the resources to travel and compete internationally anyway. |
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 7:46:07 PM
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John and Popeye, A few weeks back I had a talk to Norm Maddox of the NZCMRR about getting a few New Zealanders to the Championships in November. He mentioned the guys with 750cc tridents and rcket threes who came to Oz a couple of years back and got well beaten by Rex and the boys. They won't come back if the classes are like that.
This is the reason that 'heritage BEARS' was considered for the championship meeting. I know you blokes probably aren't happy at the prospect of BEARS at a championship meeting, but it would bring about 40 more entries, and the New Zealanders would get a competitive ride. When you get the supp regs for the meeting, you'll be asked whether you want to ride in a BEARS event - it's all up to you whether we run the four races. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 11:07:42 PM
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anyone who reads 'classic racer' should be familiar with the forgotten era/post classics as raced in UK. the January and March editions from this year have an artical on the 'Team Glam' bikes, they are P&M framed Kawasaki's. this was a frame made for the TT F1 races of the late 70's and used Kawasaki KZ1000 engines, they claim to have over 160hp and weigh in at 140 kgs..
the UK rules only permit the 4stroke engines with 2valves per cylinder and prohibit the use of slicks but they allow the use of 4 piston Brembo calipers and any floating disc, plus they can use a 5 1/2" rear wheel and any conventional 43mm fork (like a modern R6). our rule limit rear wheel sizes to 4 1/2" and forks to 41mm which replicate those avalible in the era (pre '81).
but we can use the 4valve engines and slick tires so really the bikes should each have advantages and diss-advantages.
at a track like Phillip Island where there isn't so much hard breaking, their modern brake set-ups wont be much of an advantage but their bigger back tires will allow them to get on the gas pretty hard. but we can use slicks so that should allow a similar type of grip. so really i think the bike that wins will have the best rider on board...
my understanding is that if this goes ahead, it will run at the Island Classic and will replace the current period 5 events, so if you race in Period 5 and don't agree with this concept it isn't really a matter of just staying away because your going to loose your event at Phillip Island so you better say something .
i think the event rules are far from perfect BUT what other chance is there of getting some kind of historic 3 country challenge going?
so i'm all for it (for the little that's worth) |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 08:19:38 AM
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There is no gaurantee nor discussion about a possible International Post Clasic support race replacing the normal p5 event. That is ultimately up to the promoter.
the point about P3 is good. Can we start another discussion and get some ideas together? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 08:23:14 AM
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I understand John and a few others are trying to write a few rules which would allow international riders to ride in Australian events.
I believe its really difficult to write rules for historic racing. I suggest it might be possible to develop some kind of mission statement which could define what we are trying to achieve. It certainly isn't 'racing as it was' in any particular era. I believe we've got to get past finding ways of 'cheating' and move on. The thing is, every problem we had with bikes in years gone by, we can now solve with modern technology. The argument is 'it COULD have existed back then'. Perhaps we should have a look at how the historic cars are run under CAMS? The log booked vehicles either actually existed 'back then', or are good replicas of something that actually raced. You can't just build something out of your head! The thing is - what we are doing is HISTORIC racing, not just 'racing old bikes'.
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Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 08:28:01 AM
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| How about we make a rule that all Jap multis and two strokes can only run in period 5? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 11:40:52 PM
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whether this event goes ahead is entirely up to the promoters, the emails i have read are lobbying the orgainisers and promoters to allow this to happen and it would replace the current period 5 events. it wont cause any changes to the P3 or P4 classes so you guys don't need to worry about that.
but what it could do is make the '3 nation' forgotten era challenge a major draw card of events, with so many international riders competeing and finally give the period 5 guys some good promotion exposure.
this might even be enough to tempt some of the more famous ex-racers to show up this year. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 9:06:52 PM
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A promoter like Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd would have to submit supplementary regs to MA for any meeting including the new class. This is to arrange the track/meeting permits and insurance. Are you saying that any bike wishing to compete must fully comply with the eligibilty rules of the country of origin? I suggest we'd have to stipulate for which classes of historic racing in each country
I suggest the thing to do is get a Postclassic Association going and registered as a company or join up with the NSWPCA. Write the machine eligibilty specifications for the class. Then approach MA and get the class included in the MA rule book.
I'd be interested in Ross Martin's opinion on this subject.
As a rule of thumb, M.J.Ronke of Winton usually requires any special interest group to bring ten vehicles of a kind to a meeting before they get their own race. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
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27 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 11:48:18 PM
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| this will probably be seen as sour grapes, but, I finally finished my new race bike but I am not riding it at Winton because the eligbilty scrutineers question some of the components. The part I am bitching about is that there are already precedents for this bike that have log books. My point is that we can not/ have not adopted a universal descriptor for a period racer and then have differing interpretations. It is either legal or it is not, if it's not all the bikes that were passed previously should be identified and informed of the decision. Bit off the track for this thread but!! The Glam team bikes are fast enough to run modern lap times in pommie land and have the resources to constantly develop the team's bikes. They would be very interesting to see and hear |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 08:11:22 AM
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| Roger, I agree with your comment. I suggest one thing we should do is write the major objectives for our sport, paticularly as far as machines are concerned. If certain parts are banned in certain categories, it should be documented in 'the rules'! Arbitrary decisions by MA should always be criticised. They are not there to do that, the system is supposed to be democratic! So it's up to the other competitors and interested parties (promoters etc.) what you ride at historic meetings. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
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27 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 7:50:15 PM
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| firstly I think MA should decide what a period racer is. In Australia we had Improved touring motorcycles that were allowed minimal modifications cosmetically and then there were open class Formula 1 style machines such as Scott's Moto Martin. This should be delineated so a bike can run within the spirit of the class i.e a GSX 1100 would not have an aluminium tank and a cb1100r tail piece etc but would be visually compatible to the bikes that ran under the previous guidelines(G.C.R's) |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 8:45:38 PM
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Roger, I think it's a mistake to look to MA to take the lead in setting the rules for historic racing. I suggest the idea would be to set up your own special interest group, preferably within the existing rules, then write the class specification. If you go to any promoter with ten bikes in the class, you should be able to get your own event at a historic meet.
MAs role should be to 'ratify' the class, and put it into the GCRs, if and when it takes off. It's really up to the riders what they compete on. That's why the NSWPCA have slightly different rules, to those a few years back. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 9:34:47 PM
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Listen you blokes can we stick to the INTERNATIONAL POST CLASSIC
Can you take your conversation to another place. I have started it for you, " topic XXXXX" |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 9:48:23 PM
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Getting back to the subject matter.
The proposal is not necessarily to replace the existing P5 with the IPCC. There will be many machines and riders who dont want to or cannot compete against them because they dont want to get blown to the weeds. That OK I understand.
Please dont look at this idea as a stepping stone to having a new class for 3 cylinder ****el engines on bikes with 16 inch scooter wheels manufacture between the months of may to june in 1977 only.
It is a suggestion to permit a race within the current GCR's between Aussie Historic P/Classic & F/Era and other non-auusie log booked "Historics" subject to a promoter seeing benefit to themselves with it.
Personal Comment "If I had my way I would be bringing sidecars over!!!" |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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4 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 7:32:29 PM
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For what it's worth!
Recently, racing in the TERA Challenge at Hidden valley, my RC181 Replica 500 Honda, was up against a 1985 750cc water-cooled bike. Having driven 2800 Kms to compete, to measure my competitveness, before deciding on whether to enter the Oz Champs in Nov, I've decided not to go. I berlieve, and the Scrutineers do, my bike fits Period 4.
Those with more money to develope will always win. Fact of classes not stricly policed. Too many thin edge of the wedge things happen. |
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Former Member
deleted
48 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 8:13:18 PM
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racer7
can you post or send more details. I'm in Darwin and will look into it for you. You can send me a PM if you like.
Don't take the Darwin race as a test as it wasn't supposed to have been a classic meeting. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 9:08:12 PM
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| Today I heard about a race organiser in NZ who is setting up events based on more than 'periods'. They actually look at capacity and competitiveness of individual machines, and group them regardless of year! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 11:51:47 PM
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hey racer 7,just think!, you would be welcomed with open arms at oz champs!  ,the guy with the 85 w/c 750 won't!! ,  |
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popeye
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
187 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 06:33:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Today I heard about a race organiser in NZ who is setting up events based on more than 'periods'. They actually look at capacity and competitiveness of individual machines, and group them regardless of year!
sounds similar to the "bracket" racing they have at Mallala, everyone gets to run in a field that does'nt contain anyone too much faster and you go up or down a "bracket " as your times change, as long as your machine is track compliant you can run it. |
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 07:41:31 AM
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Late news
The Island Classic will conduct a challenge called the "International Forgotten Era ...." 13 bikes from each country being Aust., UK and NZ. There will be a points system inplace. More to come as I find out. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 4:58:05 PM
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| John, I really don't care what rules the International Post Classic run under (as long as they're reasonably fair), I just want to have a look at the Team Glam bikes, and see how fast they go. I truly believe that bringing them to Oz is a great move, all involved with the venture are to be congratulated. The more international riders we bring here the better, they can only help historic racing in Oz, improve!! The point is we might actually get a glimpse of how good historic racing COULD BE, if we keep working at it! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 5:50:55 PM
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I disagree.
I reckon we have good racing here and no pommy or NZ riders could be better than we have here now, I reckon we just need to blow them to the weeds each time they get here and I will feel real good about it!!!
BUT!!! if we could get some sidecars that would be of real interest and benefit to mankind. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 8:05:11 PM
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The best days' spectating I ever had were at Sandown in the 70s when Hansford, the Sayles, Willing, Ron Toombs and Bill Horsman used to race against Hurley Wilvert, Pat Hennen, Rob Mc Elnea. Once I saw Victor Soussan ride a borrowed TZ350 and led the A Grade field by the length of the front straight. He had just returned from riding the GPs overseas for George Beale, and borrowed the bike from Milledges, fitted his tyres and carbies and did the chamber mods.
The international guys set the benchmark. If we're beating them that's OK, but seriously there's some fast b*stards amongst them.
But thanks for the effort in bringing them here, I'm really looking forward to it. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 9:46:53 PM
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my racer buddy from SA told me that the idea was originally from one of the NZ racers.
i'll definately be going to watch them and give the SA riders any support !!!
with the grid being 13 bike from each country, that should cover ALL the UK, ALL the NZ and the fastest of our guys PLUS it doesn't affect the "normal" period 5 events.
sounds like a 'win win' to me
on another subject, sorry we will be missing the Southern Classic, but Rnd 1 of the SA Champs is held on the same date at MacPark.
how stupid is that? the 2 tracks are 400kms apart and they both are looking for historic bikes on the same date. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 09:43:21 AM
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| spot on HHH,we have been promoting the southern classic for 13 months. How any club could not know it was on is beyond me. With the web site for clubs to talk You must be logged in to see this link. there is no reason for lack of knowledge. Perhaps david could set up something which would remove any reason for lack of knowledge. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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