| Author |
 Topic  |
|
| |
Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2011 : 12:53:08 PM
|
If you are planning to enter HW 2011, please do so now, our numbers are down a bit with all the alternatives in tehy market place at the moment.
Thanks
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 08:23:33 AM
|
| I would have thought HMRAV would get a lot of entries for the Winton Meeting regardless of other opportunities to race? The circuit is the best and safest for motorcycles in Eastern Australia. And the Austin 7 meeting is always interesting. |
 |
|
|
JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 09:30:38 AM
|
Alan, you are either being deliberately provocative or, as we say in Scotland, aff yer heed. Question: Where did the most recent road race fatality occur? Second question: Why did it occur? Third question: Was it preventable (that one's rhetorical)
|
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 09:57:37 AM
|
People can have their own thoughts about entries.
BUT facts are different, people are looking forward to other meetings.
A big issue is the perception of oil on the track from dodgy cars.
Anyway we are doing what we can and with 15 sidec**** entered it should be good anyway. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 6:39:31 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JasonL
Alan, you are either being deliberately provocative or, as we say in Scotland, aff yer heed. Question: Where did the most recent road race fatality occur? Second question: Why did it occur? Third question: Was it preventable (that one's rhetorical)
What are the answers to these questions ? That thread fired up bemoaning the poor soul's unfortunate demise, but we never heard who he was, or how he crashed. Not being macabre, but we need to learn from these incidents : happily, they are much less regular these days... |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 8:10:05 PM
|
Hartwell boy
wet track
Winton |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 9:14:30 PM
|
I was fortunate to have a drive at Winton in the wet and was surprised at the changing grip going over the silicone crack filler that is applied over the old or smaller circuit at Winton.
|
Edited by - Patrick on 08 May 2011 8:39:19 PM |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 9:33:21 PM
|
| Still think that HW is one of the best events in Victoria - will be there again with lots of mates this year! |
Edited by - Patrick on 06 May 2011 9:36:03 PM |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 08:55:55 AM
|
GD66 If one of you speaks to me, I'll fill you in on as much as I know, the details are very sad.the guy chucked the bike away under brakes in the wet, and followed the bike off to the left of the circuit. Apparently the bike hit the tyre barrier first, and bounced back into his chest. It's still under investigation, and I probably shouldn't even say as much as I have here. It's all on video.
Jason, to get killed on any circuit these days you havc to be simply unlucky. All circuits undergo a risk assessment prior to licensing. Most hazards you are likely to hit have usually been controlled, either by removal or use of airbags etc. |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 09:05:52 AM
|
| Jason, The document titled 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport' is available from Standards Australia International. Their office is in South Melbourne. You can read it there, if you ring them first. |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 09:23:17 AM
|
| Jason, You should be able to access the Coroner's Report on the incident at Winton. Workcover were also involved, so there will also be information from that source. If you read the guide, as well as those reports, you might get a knowledge of how fatal incidents are handled these days, and what the obligations are of all participants, including yourself. |
|
|
|
GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 4:52:41 PM
|
| Thanks Alan. Poor bugger was desperately unlucky if that's the case, as you've mentioned because of the relatively low speeds you'd be unlikely to have anything too traumatic go wrong round Winton. I seem to recall that's how Harry Hinton jnr was injured at Imola. |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 6:17:50 PM
|
Personel comment here;
I just reckon people should take responsibility for themselves. They should look at a circuit and decide whether to race or not.
Sure get rid of obvious problems, but geez, soon we will to have seat belts, air bags etc just to sit in a resturant.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 7:23:16 PM
|
Agreed John, and you're always told at riders briefing that if things aren't to your satisfaction then you are free to withdraw from the meeting at any time, but it still shouldn't stop us keeping an eye out for UNNECESSARY and avoidable hazardous situations.
WA was the last bastion of street racing in Aussie, and we raced at a number of wheatbelt towns into the 1990s, but on those circuits you naturally only raced at nine-tenths, or paid the price... |
Edited by - GD66 on 07 May 2011 7:23:45 PM |
|
|
|
JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 9:38:51 PM
|
I'd like to add some points of clarification here. Firstly, the rider was Phil Harrison, 49, who thankfully did not have any children to leave fatherless but did leave behind a partner, parents and siblings. He was on a Triumph 675. The section of the track where he came off is in the braking area after a straight, along which even in wet, would see such bikes in 4th gear prior to buttoning off. Having raced there in very similar conditions I would estimate his terminal speed along this straight to be around 190km/h. At which point in the braking zone he has lost control I don't know but in order to have had such a trajectory to put himself and the bike into the tyre barrier suggests to me he was still travelling at as much as 120km/h. There is the following clip of a 400 rider coming off at the same spot in very similar conditions in 2010. I was in this same race: You must be logged in to see this link.
Now: there is, in this braking area, a large seam or over-banding or perhaps a combination of both. I know this because I hit it and nearly came down myself. The 400 rider in the clip I believe is too far to the right and too deep to have been undone by it and simply had too much front brake, and we also don't know Phil Harrison's line in, but it is not inconceivable that he hit that bad spot. What the youtube clip highlights is obvious: the tyre barrier is dangerously situated. It is that simple.
Some sections of Winton are quite safe, and some are not. GD you yourself noted changing grip in the dry in a car with excellent roadholding, how would you fare on a bike in the wet? It is not enough to say you ride to the conditions- we are racing - unless you have walked the place a hundred times and know every square inch of the surface you cannot know what you are riding on until sometimes its too late. I am keen to do a track walk at Winton so I can better understand the surface I'm racing on. At the Vic titles recently the son of a well known historic competitor crashed due to clipping the high car kerbs. His own fault you say? Perhaps, but you take the point.
Yes, yes, yes of course we make personal decisions, we don't have to ride there (well, if you are interested in completing any of the championships then yes you do). Most of the fatalities I can think of in racing over the past 10 or 20 yrs have been either riders hitting track-side barriers or being hit by another bike. The freak accidents if we can call them that, or "unlucky" ones (can we fairly call them that?) are extremely rare.
Whilst spectating at the Winton Vic Titles round in-between my own heats I also saw a 1000cc rider in the dry wildly outbrake himself into the same section where Phil came off. Except this time we were on the full circuit, which meant this rider didn't stop far short of coming back onto the other side of the circuit, either that or nearly nailing the marshall's stand. Question: if Winton is such a relatively low speed circuit, compare its average lap speed by class to Broadford, EC and PI.
|
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 9:58:49 PM
|
' Question: if Winton is such a relatively low speed circuit, compare its average lap speed by class to Broadford, EC and PI.'
What is your question? If you have a safety issue, take it up with the circuit owner, and the circuit licensing bodies through your union.
|
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 10:10:40 PM
|
| John, As a meeting organiser, you too have a duty of care along with the circuit owner, and competitors and officials. Better to recongnise it prior to any incident, otherwise you could be told about it in the coroner's court. In the event of any fatality during racing, someone has to put their hand up, and take responsibility. If the court has to go round the houses chasing the responsible person, it's really bad for the sport. It happened when the mashall was killed during the F1 GP a while back, and Ron Grant ended up wearing the mud. |
|
|
|
GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 07:29:50 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JasonL
Some sections of Winton are quite safe, and some are not. GD you yourself noted changing grip in the dry in a car with excellent roadholding, how would you fare on a bike in the wet? It is not enough to say you ride to the conditions
Thanks for filling out the picture, Jason. A very sad situation. Firstly, I fail to see why everybody instantly goes into Lockdown mode in these situations, how are we to learn from them ? The tyre wall there is pretty scary : what purpose can it serve ? It appears to be protecting the re-entry of the long circuit, but when are the two tracks ever used together ? Bizarre.
It was actually Patrick who mentioned the grip levels in a car, but I've raced the Winton long circuit in the wet and that pair of 90 deg corners and the short straight that links them are a maze of questionable patterns of dubious grip, so you charge through there at your peril. The dodgy on-track conditions when I was there were augmented by the crash crew driving across and onto the track, bringing mud and grass with them, at random spots throughout the wet day to retrieve crashed bikes, although to be fair it was difficult to warn riders of their location as there was only ONE flag marshal...
I may have misrepresented myself with the nine-tenths comment Jason, I am not one of the "throttle works both ways" group, I meant that back in the street racing days all of us were well aware that although we were there racing, we very much needed to ride with care and thought for our fellow riders, or things could get very ugly very quickly. I am an MA steward and clerk of course so am well aware of the need for constant vigilance in these matters. I feel John is bemoaning the proliferation of the "nanny society" where we need protection from everything including ourselves : I agree with that, but although it's nowadays beset with a swag of paperwork, it's still worth it all for your soul once you get out of the pit lane, on to the track and get stuck in... |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 07:39:32 AM
|
| GD66 Nothing 'bizarre' about anything. the tyre barrier is used to block the small circuit when the large circuit is used. It is drawn back to the left, and clear of the corner when the small circuit is being use. It hasn't been explained how the deceased was steered towards it. I haven't seen the video, but I believe that when he passed the bike with the camera and lost it under brakes, he was really hooting along. |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 07:46:24 AM
|
| I should point out that the Hartwell meeting was run on the short circuit with the tyre barrier drawn back away from the corner. As for flaggies, these days at Winton the control lights are often used. And anyway no reponsible club would run without either sort of control. |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 07:51:46 AM
|
| Jason 'Ride to the conditions?' In the US they don't race in the rain. What does your own personal risk assessment tell you? At present it's still your choice as to whether you race under those conditions. Would you like that changed? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2011 : 08:08:43 AM
|
Alan, I agree obvious matters need to be removed, but when will the safety gods settle down.
dressing their issues with the track owner.
If that happens we have one less track to use and that sounds like an even DUMBER situation to create. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 07:15:46 AM
|
| John,the 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport' outlines the requirements for risk assessments of facilities. It recognises that 'sh*t happens'. We won't lose a circuit because of rigorous examination and control of the intrinsic hazards. We WILL lose it if we don't do the hard yards, and minimise the risks to a tolerable level. The hard fact is that deaths will happen, and we all have the obligation to TAKE CARE and try to prevent them! |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 07:37:49 AM
|
| Anyway if you want to race at Historic Winton and have not put in the entry please call me 03 9888 4387 |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 10:01:20 AM
|
Yes John sorry to hijack the thread, get those entries in!
GD we are becoming (have become?) a nanny society; paradoxically street racing could be a way to address, in NSW for example, the dire lack of circuits and inject some interest and (modest) cash into struggling rural areas.
A closing comment: I fully agree we need all the tracks we can get. All circuits contain potential hazards, some are more obvious or dangerous than others. It is therefore a matter of honest assessment, recognition and knowledge of circuits and incidents therein that I am asking we be frank about. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Historic Winton 2011
