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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:13:37 AM
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So far we have the following entries
15 sidecars
24 pre war solos
13 P4 solos
27 P5 solos which includes 13 under 600cc machines
I have suggested that we encourage the 600cc and under P5 solos to also enter the P4 race.
That way the feilds will look better and some of you will get an extra ride.
NOW, PLEASE DONT GO RINGING PEOPLE TO ASK FOR CLARIFICATION.
IT CANT BE MORE SIMPLE THAN THAT.
THE DECISION WILL BE MADE CLOSER TO THE EVENT.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 13 May 2011 11:23:51 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 09:28:01 AM
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It intrigues me where this 600cc idea came from.
In my world it was always 500cc.
Can someone explain please? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 12:04:53 PM
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The HMRAV recognises the 600 because we run a survey and the racers felt the 500cc cut off pushed 600cc into the larger capacity class when in fact the 600 's are very competitive against 350cc two strokes.
We do it because people like the competition between similar powered bikes. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 10:04:08 AM
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John, It's HISTORIC racing? In history the capacity classes were ultralightweight (125cc) Lightweight (250cc) Junior (350cc) Senior (500cc) F750 (750cc) Unlimited (1000cc). Are you trying to rewrite history with a 600cc capacity limit?
There is nothing wrong with running P5 bikes with P4 bikes in any of the above capacity classes. We might even get full grids? The problem only comes when two strokes and four strokes run in the same races, then we need a capacity handicap for the two strokes. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 7:45:32 PM
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John, we made that change 8 years ago. WE also allow CB350 Hondas on the track and I never saw one at Calder or Hume weir.
We set out the racing to suit the riders so they have fun and comeback. We also ran a 750cc Push rod class, and C class which was never here.
John its works for those involved. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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freddie60
Level 1 Member
New South Wales
7 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 8:49:32 PM
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Regarding running 600's in period 5 500 class
Under 500's can"t run 17" rims and slicks, or is it allowed in your races.
Don't you think the 600,s may have an unfair advantage running slicks? |
Wunof Machine Shoppe |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 11:24:20 PM
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| Since when has fairness been an issue. The racers like it it is in their hands to sort it out and thsu far it has. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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freddie60
Level 1 Member
New South Wales
7 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 07:54:17 AM
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| So the question is, can under 500 p5 run 17" rims and slicks? |
Wunof Machine Shoppe |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 09:33:07 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by john
John, we made that change 8 years ago. WE also allow CB350 Hondas on the track and I never saw one at Calder or Hume weir.
Whether or not you saw one at Calder or Hume Weir is irrelevant.
They are 350s and were a recognised World Championship capacity class from 1949 until killed off by the politicians who run our sport after 1982.
There was never a 600cc class! |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 09:49:03 AM
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| John, I'm just happy to see you thinking progressively, and combining the bikes of various periods into their historic capacity classes, even if the 600cc class isn't exactly 'historic'. If you can get substantially full grids of simiar TYPES of bikes, that would be great, and Historic Winton will be a beaut meeting with REAL RACING! Every year the crowd always watches the bikes with interest. This year they should be really stoked. There is one thing I always say to the car guys when we get to dickering -"WE MOTORCYCLISTS REALLY RACE"! There is no answer for that! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 10:06:30 AM
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| Freddie, if the P4 bikes run treaded tyres and alcohol, and the P5 bikes run slicks and petrol, isn't that a 'level playing field'? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 10:08:56 AM
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| I've only got one question - who owns the 600s ? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 11:37:04 AM
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We know there was not a 600 class. But the blokes on the 350 2 strokes and the 600 Ducati like racing against each other.
Look I am not going back 8 years. If you want to wipe out ideas here is a list of bikes to be removed that never raced in the past
- T rex Hondas
- 1100 cc sidecars
- most 500 singles P4
-Cb 350 Hondas
- T250 Suzukis
- 836 Honda sidecars
-750cc Classic sidecars
- C Class solos
We took unusual approaches to get more bikes on the track over the last 10 years.
We got praise for it.
Now people want to complain and pick faults in what we did publicly. Nothing we have ever done has been a secret.
Please accept we just want to get bikes on the track, and I am not too sure there is a lot of support to strip things back.
Matter closed |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 16 May 2011 11:47:29 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 4:04:58 PM
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John, don't take it personally, I am not having a go at you, merely curious about how a 600cc class got recognised when it has no historical significance.
It is not about which specific bikes raced in the past, not that we would know anyway, but about which capacity classes raced in the past.
To me, anything over 500cc becomes an unlimited bike, albeit limited.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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freddie60
Level 1 Member
New South Wales
7 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 5:51:38 PM
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And again the question is, can period 5 under 500's eg RD400 run slicks at Vic Titles, Historic Winton and Southern Classic.
GCR State that under 500 has to run 18" rims, and slicks are not available in 18"
??? |
Wunof Machine Shoppe |
Edited by - freddie60 on 16 May 2011 5:53:21 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 7:20:56 PM
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As for the machine itself, the GCRS apply.
John the change to 600 was asked for by the riders. Nobody saw any harm in it and thus we changed.
I do remind everybody providing the supp regs cover it, the idea can go ahead. We all acknowledge the bAussie Champs run 500cc as the cut off. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 10:13:13 PM
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| Fair chance that rule was only introduced to cover the eventuality of someone turning up to race a 600 Pantah. I've raced P4 350/P5 600 at Southern Classic several times, and so far seen none... but at least they have the opportunity to drag 'em out... |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 07:22:08 AM
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| There are a couple of Pantahs and it was those that asked. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 09:11:46 AM
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| Those people looking for garage space at Winton pls PM me - I have a garage booked, it too big for me alone. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 08:03:04 AM
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| Good luck with the meeting John. Whatever you do with the classes, I hope you get decent competitive grids. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 9:37:36 PM
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You know Alan it gives me the ****s to have people come along 8 years later and complain about something that works.
How many times do you see any ideas presented and argued for either on thsi forum or others that get more bikes to the track.
As I stated, if people want to be 100% accurate, rip those on the list out as well and see what is left on the grids.
My private view is that if a number agree with the idea, and it brings bikes to the track taht comply then so be it.
We can name all sorts of machines that are legit but few of them are about, so we need to take steps to get a result. You know in th USa they have a thriving CB350 class which never existed in the periods and yet we cant get two people to agree on any rules here for them so we cant grow the CB350 class as other classes have grown.
IE Sidecars, 125 cc Classic 350 / 500 all of whom have worked together to improve the numbers. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 12:39:12 AM
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Again with the dead horse. There are around six of us who turn out regularly with CB350 Hondas, and the only chance to grow a class out of it disappeared years ago when the supply of machines to be found in wreckers' yards dried up.
The USA have a CB160 class, not a 350 class, John. The only place running a CB350 series is the UK. Yes, there were plenty of barn find CBs around Australia in the 80s, but not since. As you've already pointed out a day or two ago, there never were many raced in the period : how could you expect to get a stand-alone class started nowadays when the build cost of a good one would be roughly equivalent to a GS1000 ? Won't be happening, but no doubt we'll keep banging round on ours, even without the luxury of a specially-created race class like 600 Pantahs... |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 09:31:42 AM
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My private view is that if people adopted the rules as suggestted by that yank bloke, which essentailly kept things pretty stock, I was hoping costs would not be so high.
The idea is not to run a separate "class" but to have an "interest group' that races within then existing class structure, a bit like the 836 sidecar class we run.
Is there a range of machines taht would be feasible, I guess one would need to look at P5 bikes now to get a chnace of finding something at the wreckers.
Is that correct? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2011 : 6:45:46 PM
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I agree in principle with the "stock block" concept, however I doubt you'd find Keith and Eddie too keen to "dumb down" their rocket, and while mine is much more conservative within, it also has had a long gestation period of development. Had the class been prompted in the early to mid-eighties, I reckon it would have had legs. But these days, not really.
As I mentioned, you can build a later, faster bike for much less these days... I hear there were some P5 bargains in the pits at the Vic titles. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 07:26:31 AM
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| I saw an excellent race last saturday which Keith Campbell won from Mick Neason. However the inclusion of the twin cylinder two stroke in the class killed the nostalgia trip. I've probably been spoilt forever,- I've been to Goodwood, and they're very selective about what they allow to run together. I feel for the guy with the two stroke, but I suggest we should look at our presentation, at the Austin 7 meeting. It's probably worth sacrificing a bit to get something that looks authentic - all four strokes together, all two strokes together? |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 8:22:20 PM
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There certainly were some bargains, one of nifty nevs gsx1100's and a whole lot of others, but what is coming to replace those rockets? Why are they moving that equipment out? They are bringing in a whole lot of stuff from O/S in the form of Harris framed gs1000 and gsx1100 motors etc. XR69 specials, special Honda's and S1 Kawasaki's and their like will be the new standard. All the ex formula 1 racing type machinary. Great stuff but Joe average will be out of the picture - unless they have BIG bucks to back them.
I think there is some room for a type of improved production class to help Joe average. Something based on street frames and street engines. Joe average won't be able to compete with the stuff that's coming but will be able to keep a foot in the door in such an improved production class. That means the controversy over the Vincent is gone, it can race in the prototype class along with the TZ750s, Harris XR69's etc where the money is and us poor boys can have the home grown alternatives.
I know the poms made a hash of it last year with their specials at the Island classic and the big Kat of Steve Martin still won the day in a new lap record, but imagine the Steve Martin motor in an Harris replica XR69 frame!!!!!! Oh well I'll keep going in the consolation class.
By the way John and HMRAV - great meeting at the weekend - congratulations. |
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Doghouse Dave
Level 2 Member
Victoria
34 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 10:29:51 PM
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| There's definetly an XR69 Suzuki replica out here,I saw it yesterday at a bike importers hidden under a tarp. It looked great,all brand new and very flash,GS1000 powered,I'd say $50,000+ worth.Its heading to Sydney from what I was told. |
It doesnt matter if you win or lose,its having a good time that counts. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 07:18:02 AM
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An improved touring class, something based on street frames and street engines? Sounds like a job for Period 6. It is going to offer people a cheap way in to historic racing: there is a wide range of machinery, mostly dead reliable, lots of bits still around....what are we waiting for? I'm sure its something that will appeal to Joe Average. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 07:37:06 AM
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Jason Bikes based on street machine engines and frames are everywhere in historic racing.
Hhow about we also have an endurance racer class for bikes of the type which existed in Europe in the 70s and 80s. They had all the trick frames and engines and suspensions. About time we had some of the good stuff? I suggest the nicest bikes in historic racing are Scott Webster's Moto Martin Kawasaki, and Darryl Bailey's Spondon Ducati - we need more of them! Oh yes, and that beautiful Maxton Yamaha that was at Broadford, along with the Nicco Bakker one! - TOP STUFF! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 09:32:01 AM
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Alan, I agree entirely, we need as much exotica as we can get. However we cannot escape the fact that these bikes are by their nature in the minority and the road stuff, however run-of-the-mill, makes up the majority of numbers. This really strikes at the heart of the historic debate - what is its raison d'etre? Is it to preserve pure race bikes and classes of the time as authentically as possible or simply to race old bikes? ie: is an eligible converted road bike that wasn't raced in the day legitimate, desirable or heretical?? In practice we have both. P5 has become a victim of its own success insofar as the mass appeal has come in no small part due to bikes like Martin's Katana which clearly were not raced in the same mechanical state in the day. But does it really matter? The Aust scene just doesn't have the critical mass versus distance between venues, we have to be practical. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 10:54:56 AM
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In part I can agree with ther notion put by Jason. The Steve Martin Kat motor simply did not exist excepting for drag racing in the States built up for 7 seconds or less (probably less). Materials technology has moved the exotica from the drag strip to the race track. As a well known ex Suzuki team mechanic said to me at the IC Kats did not go that fast in the day. Interestingly, a recent high profile rider of the day who has ridden the new old stock - or is it old new stock, claimed the replica XR was not as fast as his works bike in the day. Side issue - I think we will not stop the OS exotica from getting here just as P3 could not stop Walmsley Matchless machines from getting here.
As Jason says we do not have the critical mass and most people do not have the money to run such machinary as well as all that the owners might simply not want to ride such machinary with a bunch of yahoos like us. So we will need to maintain the current overall structure but introduce classes based on what is out there now and on what is coming over. You can still hand over a prize for the overall winner and one for each class within a race.
I am no longer entering the hotrod versus faithful replica argument, its over - the current bikes are hotrods face facts move on, get over it. Just set up a workable set of rules based on available parts in the period. |
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Historic Winton 2011 revisited extra ride
