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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 9:01:58 PM
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" Why are they moving that equipment out? They are bringing in a whole lot of stuff from O/S in the form of Harris framed gs1000 and gsx1100 motors etc. XR69 specials, special Honda's and S1 Kawasaki's and their like will be the new standard. All the ex formula 1 racing type machinary. Great stuff but Joe average will be out of the picture - unless they have BIG bucks to back them.
I think there is some room for a type of improved production class to help Joe average. Something based on street frames and street engines. Joe average won't be able to compete with the stuff that's coming but will be able to keep a foot in the door in such an improved production class. That means the controversy over the Vincent is gone, it can race in the prototype class along with the TZ750s, Harris XR69's etc where the money is and us poor boys can have the home grown alternatives."
OLDKwak fropm this site
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 Jul 2011 10:56:08 AM |
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probike
Level 1 Member
Victoria
5 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 09:01:54 AM
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| At the island classic the poms came out with the xr69s with 43mm forks 5 1/2 inch rears late model brembos and discs 1985 model cyl heads and they still couldn't bet Steve Martin on a katana |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 09:50:18 AM
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| We need to separate the POms and NZ bikes in the International Challenge from normal racing classes in Australai. Thsi Conversation is steered directly to the practcalities of general motorcycle racing, not specificaly about the International Challenge which I my opinion is a stand alone matter that is a good idea. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 10:00:57 AM
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'At the island classic the poms came out with the xr69s with 43mm forks 5 1/2 inch rears late model brembos and discs 1985 model cyl heads and they still couldn't bet Steve Martin on a katana'
I think it's really great we'll actually get to see the good stuff! GENUINE racing motorcycles, not bodged up road bikes! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 10:18:56 AM
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| John, The practicality is that buying a road bike and trying to make a racer out of it, costs about the same as buying the trick pommie frame and building something that's light and handles decently, with aftermarket parts, and a fairly priced motor. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 10:27:18 AM
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| I am talking about trying to ensure actualracing bikes are kept and bought out of the shed as distinct from making replicas from the period. Just as CAMS does it with I think Nb and Nc class cars |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 10:29:33 AM
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John, Joe Average can come and race in P6.
You said it yourself - its about the rider, and slow guys tend to be the ones that spend the most on go fast stuff.
Some guys just want to have a nice bike, that's no crime and being able to afford it isn't either. I was looking at a Harris XR69 in a workhop the other day - who wouldn't want one!! One thing's for sure, MA are cognisant and cautious to try and stop P6 getting out of hand the way P5 did. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 11:00:13 AM
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Jason, the question at the start of thsi topic is Oldkwaks comments.
I just pulled them out as a stand alone topic. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 12:00:29 PM
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John, quite right and apologies.
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 08:56:58 AM
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Jason, I agree with you! A Suzuki XR69 is to die for! :
You must be logged in to see this link.
If we cannot have the original , why not a replica? It's totally within our stupid rules! What CAMS does in banning replicas is pretty stupid. I've seen beautiful replicas such as the Type 35 Bugatti, W196 Mercedes, and D type Jaguars, which you'd never tell from the genuine. They are not even allowed to run in regularity trials at historic meetings. The theory is that replicas 'devalue the original' cars. My question is who in Australia owns an original XR69, or even an original 500cc Manx Norton? Historic racing was supposed to 'maintain the old racing bikes' - It has never done that in Australia. We know the price of everything, but the value of nothing! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 09:09:20 AM
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| Oldkwak - one of the car guys once said, if we try to specially cater for every type of car we'll eventually end up with all the races with only one competitor in them! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 09:19:54 AM
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Whether we like it or not, replicas probably help sustain all matters classic rather than demote. Why do they exist in the first place? Because the originals become too rare and too expensive. Without replicas, the active sense of many marques, models and categories, car or bike, would fossilize. By the way, have you seen how much a good replica GT40 or AC Cobra costs??? Do we need replicas of replicas to keep costs down?? Where does it end?? I'm taking a Bex and having a lie down.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 10:32:29 AM
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I am not sugesting we dont have replicas. But in reality they are not replicas but a compliation of lots of new ideas as well. My point is to try and keep original bikes running, maybe even exact copies if the get valuable and others. We are again seeing discussion about P3 front brakes based on a very remote chance something may have been used once.
My private view is that one off use of something should not open the door to everybody using it.
But if a machine is identical with the good ideas and the bad ideas then that may be ok, but a bike which is the sum of all teh good bits and new trechnology just somehow seems to denigrate reality of Historic racing. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 9:55:35 PM
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| In a way you are correct, John. The original XR69 was based on the GS1000 two valve motor, and was fitted with a 6 speed CR box. I haven't had a look at the bikes the Poms brought last year, but from the comment about 1985 motors above, they're probably using the four valve gsx1100 motor, and I doubt that the box is 6 speed or close ratio! The replicas might not be much faster than the originals. I saw an original Team Herron XR69 in a museum near Bowness in the Lake District, three years ago. I didn't dare ask what it was worth. But a replica wouldn't be all bad! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 10:37:09 PM
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That is genuine, but it is NOT an XR69 ! It is a one-off build by Suzuki GB with a Dunstall chassis built for Sheene in 1979.
The XR69 was factory-built and was introduced in 1980, and ridden in its' debut season by Joey Dunlop and Graeme Crosby. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 07:35:42 AM
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| I've seen an article somewhere on the XR69 which was ridden by Crosby. That's how I know about the motor and gearbox format. It might be worth searching the web for it? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 08:12:05 AM
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does anyone know which class this happened in? It doesn't sound like anything which has been run in Victoria:
'Young rode the wheels off the Ducati chasing Steve Bridge on the Norton Commando.' |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 09:02:14 AM
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That would have been in the Paul Dobbs memorial race at the BSM.
Edit : I've just looked at your link, and it's explained in there !
The Paul Dobbs race was for F750 and the field comprised singles and twins up to P4. |
Edited by - GD66 on 09 Jul 2011 09:20:58 AM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 09:46:55 AM
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| Where did you get the info that the Paul Dobbs memorial race was for 'P4 singles and twins up to 750cc'? Was that a class which has been run regularly in NSW, in the past? I've never seen a class of that type in Victoria! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 09:50:57 AM
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sorry, I misquoted you:
'The Paul Dobbs race was for F750 and the field comprised singles and twins up to P4.'
Sounds pretty good to me! When will it happen in Victoria? - Looks like NEVER! |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 09:58:56 AM
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It's not a class, Alan. It's a formula for a one-off race in memory of Paul Dobbs, the kiwi who raced in the UK, the Isle of Man and Australasia on moderns and historics with equal verve. Rode a variety of 600s and 1000s, a 675 Triumph, the Lidgate Rob North triples, the Roger Moss Scott, an ABSAF BSA, all sorts of bangers and the very Norton twin that Steve Bridge rode in the race article you quoted. I'm guessing that format most represented the bikes he raced when in Australia.
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 09:57:47 AM
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Back to the original proposition, the fact is that there are already a number of people racing who use road bikes of the period and "hot rod' them to race. They are no competition for the type of stuff the poms bought out, in the longer term. The fact that there will shortly be a group of these specials in the fields does not, as has been said, guarantee them a place at the pointy end, the rider's skill has a big influence on this.
Yes, yes Steve Martin won at the Island Classic but I think a close examination of his bike will open the eyes as to what it really is and I say it could probably compete against anything including XR69s etc anytime. It probably wouldn't be able to run at the BSM especially as they knocked out the Vincent. That's to say nothing about his (Steve's) awesome riding ability
Nevertheless, over time the Harris copy XR69s and their ilk, with proper compliance steps taken to fit in with the rules, will dominate over the blokes who are running the converted road bikes and a risk exists as to the size of fields as a consequence. It is for this reason I put the idea up. Its just to keep the ordinary blokes out there on the track and not disheartened. |
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probike
Level 1 Member
Victoria
5 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 9:15:44 PM
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| Whats wrong with steve's bike |
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trumpybob
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
29 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 10:07:33 PM
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without wanting to hijack this thread, the BSM f750 class is a great class and like wise the Paul Dobbs memorial, but for the sake of accuracy it is NOT restricted to singles and twins, triples are included, as any F750 bike of the era.
cheers, Bob. |
Racing is everything,the rest of the time is just waiting |
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trumpybob
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
29 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 10:18:32 PM
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| Actually, the F750 class fits old kwaks idea because it was/is a production based class |
Racing is everything,the rest of the time is just waiting |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 07:41:22 AM
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| As I said, there is nothing wrong with Steve's bike, it goes real well especially at the Island Classic. Does it comply with the rules, well I am not a scrutineer and since I am not at the pointy end I am not putting up the money to complain. If you want to have a look AMCN put a video on the net after the Island this year and one point might be obvious immediately when you watch it. |
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old kwaks idea
