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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2009 : 09:16:13 AM
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Please review and make comments if necessary. If you like tell me, because that will make us feel good about the work we have done.
Saturday
1. Classic Sidecars 650cc and Unlimited
2. Vintage, Classic 125cc, 250cc Solos
3. Classic 350 Solo
4. Classic over 500 Solo
5. Classic 500 Solo
6. Post Classic & Forgotten Era Sidecars
7. Post Classic 125cc to 350 & F / Era 125cc to 600 Solo
8. Post Classic over 350 & F/ Era over 600 Solo
Lunch - Sidecar Display
9. Classic Sidecars up to 650cc & Unlimited
10. Vintage, Classic 125cc, 250cc Solos
11. Classic 350cc Solo
12. Classic over 500cc Solo
13. Classic 500cc Solo
14. Post Classic & Forgotten Era Sidecars
15. Post Classic 125cc to 350 & F / Era 125cc to 600 Solo
16. Post Classic over 350 & F / Era over 600 Solo
17. Classic Sidecars up to 650 & Unlimited
18. Vintage, Classic 125cc, 250cc Solos
19. Classic 350cc solo
20. Classic over 500cc Solo
21. Classic 500cc Solo
22. Post Classic & Forgotten Era Sidecars
23. Post Classic 125cc to 350 & F / Era 125cc to 600 Solo
24. Post Classic over 350 & For / Era over 600 Solo
Sunday
25. Classic Sidecars up to 650cc and Unlimited
26. Vintage, Classic 125cc, 250cc Solos
27. Classic 350cc Solo
28. Classic over 500cc Solo
29. Classic 500cc Solo
30. Post Classic & Forgotten Era Sidecars
31. Post Classic 125cc to 350 & F / Era 125cc to 600 Solo
32. Post Classic over 350 & Forgotten Era over 600 Solo
33. BRUCE DONALD MEMORIAL Classic Sidecar H/cap
34. Old Timers Invitation Race-40 Oldest Classic Comp.
35. SOUTHERN CLASSIC Sidecars up to 650cc & Unlimited
36. SOUTHERN CLASSIC Vintage & Classic 125cc, 250cc
Lunch - Sidecar Display
37. SOUTHERN CLASSIC 350cc Solo
38. SOUTHERN CLASSIC over 500cc Solo
39. SOUTHERN CLASSIC 500cc Solo
40. SOUTHERN POST CLASSIC & F /Era Sidecars
41. SOUTHERN POST CLASSIC 125cc to 350, F/ E 125cc to 600
42. SOUTHERN POST CLASSIC over 350, F/Era over 600
43. Classic Sidecars up to 650 & Unlimited
44. Vintage, Classic 125cc, 250cc Solos
45. Classic 350cc Solo
46. Classic over 500cc Solo
47. Classic 500cc Solo
48. Post Classic & Forgotten Era Sidecars
49. Post Classic 125 to 350 & For / Era 125 to 600 Solo
50. Post Classic over 350 & For / Era over 600 Solo
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 25 Jun 2009 09:23:21 AM |
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the kid
Level 1 Member
Victoria
5 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2009 : 8:38:17 PM
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Oh Dear 
Despite what I thought was a well explained email to the Secretary of the Hmrav with regard to the grids at Victorian Historic titles , thats the meeting that few 125s turned up at , it seems that logic with regard to safety and a competetive grid system has gone the same way as common decency and giving up your seat for older folk and pregnant women . Stay seated John . |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2009 : 10:53:31 PM
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the more i look at it ,the more my head hurts |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 09:40:56 AM
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John, as I read this you have P4 125s on track with P5 up to 600s. Looks like a recipe for disaster to me. 125s need to race with bikes of similar performance and even within the 125cc class there is a big difference between a 4 stroke banger and a 2 stroke screamer.
This needs a big rethink or the 125s will be conspicuous by their absence (again).
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 3:24:11 PM
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| yes i thought we went through all this before ,,125s do not want to be in with the big bikes,,,,we want ALL 125s to race together period 3,4,5s put us all in with the 250 classics and we will all be HAPPY,,not to much too ask i think,,,,,,,,,, |
125 alliance |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2009 : 4:17:58 PM
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Not all racers want all the 125's together.
We had many submissions, and the compromise to try and meet all aspects is to have the period capacties separated.
For instance the P3 people do not want P5 125's with slicks and discs on the same track and race.
I accept not everybody will be happy but if you saw all the submissions nobody would be happy. We think for the number of machines coming along thsi is a start. We will take action as and when we see the need on the track etc or from other experiences.
The P5 upto 600's are not fast enough to get a problem with the P5 125's lap times.
The 250 Classic did not want slicks etc on the 125's in their race either.
So I ask that you think about what we are doing and wait until we see how it works, the committee is convinced it has not created a dangerous situation for any class with thsi proposal.
The bottom line is we cannot run separate races for each capacity and class, it is not a matter of the older classes taking over, remember they are the very essence of old bike racing and need encouragement to remain racing.
Historic racing with only P4 and P5 machines is not historic racing in my opinion.
We hope to attract more Classic 350 and 500's along because that is a classic many riders actually have two machines in.
I am aware not allwill |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 26 Jun 2009 4:29:34 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2009 : 11:09:21 AM
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This discussion is predominantly about 125s so could we get some indication of how many would turn up if they had their own races and how many of them would not turn up under the current proposal?
John, I appreciate the problems H.M.R.A.V. have in trying to keep everyone happy and I realise that it will never happen, but rider safety must be paramount.
Cheers, John
On checking last year's programme I see that there were 7 250s and 11 125s or 5 250s and 13 125s (Peter Forkes and Ron Matthews thought they could ride 2 bikes at the same time). Either way, 18 bikes in the race.
However, in the P4 350/P5 600 race there were 31 starters (Des Heaney was going to try the 2 bike trick in this one).
Surely there were enough 125s to justify running the same again, particularly in light of the lack of entries for the Vic. Titles?! |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 27 Jun 2009 5:26:30 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 09:28:31 AM
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I spoke with peopleat the Sydney forum, they sugestted puting the P4 and P5 125's together in the P4 up to 350 event.
Thoughts please.
The Classic 250's DO NOT WANT YOU IN THEIR RACE.
I will pass on the thoughts. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 4:28:10 PM
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| yes well that sounds ok to me that way i can race my 250 classic as well,,,, |
125 alliance |
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the kid
Level 1 Member
Victoria
5 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 6:44:43 PM
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Sorry if I get a bit fired up by these things but
quote "The 250 Classic did not want slicks etc on the 125's in their race either."
Who the hell are these people ? Some people had better get out some Historic rules !!!
No one runs slicks on anything unless they are unlimited P5 !!! I think some people should have a better understanding of the GCR's or better still read em .
I stand corrected if someone has found a source for 18" slicks 
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2009 : 10:56:46 PM
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Marc Bondini
I stand corrected if I misquoted somebody. But in my role I know I should not misquote anything.
But seriuosly it is very confusing to work out something taht will work for most. As I have said keep putting it inwriting, even han d it to me at the track because we are dealing with a lot of things. I am confident the whole committee would be working to make it easy for everybody.
As I have stated many times when we get more bikes we will be forced to split calsses even more and that would solve everybody's issues, but seriously I want to get as best we can.
So keep writing even if you have before.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 28 Jun 2009 11:47:10 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 09:29:22 AM
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Historically racing has always been by capacity.
125, 250, 350 and 500cc. Somewhere along the way the big banger road bikes got let in and created the unlimited class.
If an event is to be deemed historical it must follow history.
125s race with 125s, 250s with 250s etc.
Periods had nothing to do with history, they are a modern invention. Lap times don't have much to do with it either.
Einstein simplified it into a formula but basically if a 90kg 125 gets hit by a 160kg 600 there will be a big problem for the 125 rider.
One of the major problems here is that we are trying to determine the race classes without knowing how many entrants or what capacity classes we are trying to cater for.
We really need to have a pre entry expression of interest form so that races can be planned with some knowledge of who is likely to turn up.
We have time on our side so let's give some serious thought to how we can improve things.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2009 : 09:47:05 AM
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I have sent the revised supp regs to David Greening,
I asked if he would add this note to the supp regs page
David, these are the supp regs, Could you add a note as follows
" The HMRAV committee will consider shifting the P5 125's to run within the P4 race if numbers or representation show it is practical, please remember abusing us about the issue does not constitute reasoned debate, thank you John Daley ."
John we often dont get entries until very late, so pre- entry notification may not occur.
We do look at past support for each class and we do listen to other points of view.
One problem with some riders is that if they cant ride 2 bikes, they wont evn turn up to ride the bike they can get entered. So we dont know what possiblities there are and grid numbers are down.
If everybody tried to ride two machines and stayed home because we did not get the program right, there would be no races.
Surely any keen racer will take what he can get and then put a case for improving the situation for himself.
In NSW there is no racing for classics because everybody seems to be waiting for somebody else to start the ball rolling. Sure there is a track shortage, but Winton is available from time to time.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 29 Jun 2009 09:52:23 AM |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 9:19:31 PM
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As I mentioned before (You must be logged in to see this link.) after the Vic Historic Champs, quote:
I had a great time at Broadford, enjoying the track, the organisation, the racing & the people. The only disappointment for me was the combination of big & small bikes in the "Up to 600cc races" from all classes in one race. I also heard at the Barry Sheene event that many potential interstate competitors were turned off by this arrangement. It didn't bother me particularly but many slower riders could have been & were very intimidated by being lapped & passed by other much faster riders (including international class riders).
A much better way, in my view, is to have similar capacity bikes from all periods in 1 race as per Phillip Isl Classic & Barry Sheene Festival eg. "Post Classic & Forgotten Era 125 & 250cc/Classic 250/350cc" (Barry Sheene Festival) or "Pre-War/125cc (All Eras)/250cc Classic" (Phillip Isl Classic)
And, John, as far as I know, there are no slicks available in 18" (for "little" bikes). The only slicks available are in 17" & only the Unlimited class are allowed to run 17" wheels by the current rules - unfortunately!
Cheers, Bernie |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 09:18:02 AM
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At the committee meeting last night the decision was made to run a survey amongst riders as to what they want.
the program to be reviewed involved
all 125cc in to gether,
250 / 350 from P2 and 3 together
250 / 350 from P4 and 5
500 Classic stand alone
Unlimited P2 and P3 together
upto 750 P4 and up to 600cc P5 together
750 - unlimited P4 and over 600 - unlimited P5 together
sidecars as per normal
Bumping a capcity will be permissible.
This will be published in our newsletter, our survey etc and a final decision will be based on the results.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 21 Jul 2009 5:01:30 PM |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 09:55:14 AM
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| This looks good John |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 12:12:15 PM
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John, what we now need to know is how, when, and where the survey will be conducted and who will be asked to participate.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 2:11:00 PM
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HMRAV club members, sidecar club members, Oakleigh Bowls club members, oh, all racers who come to the Southern Classic and perhaps the titles. I will try and get it on this site also.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 3:59:58 PM
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So which year should we expect to have the results of this survey?
This is supposed to be for the 2009 Southern Classic which is only 14 weeks from now.
I think the 125 riders have already stated that they do not want to ride with big bikes.
If we keep this up there will not be any at the Southern Classic to ask.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 5:00:03 PM
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| As Toody said last night, the HMRAV has had three proposed programs for the 2009 event. Since the 125 riders have said they will go to the Oran Park meeting this year the committee is prepared to seek opinions from racers at the 2009 evnt and then set up the Vic. Titles 2010 and S/Classic 2010 to the new program. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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the kid
Level 1 Member
Victoria
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 7:09:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
As Toody said last night, the HMRAV has had three proposed programs for the 2009 event. Since the 125 riders have said they will go to the Oran Park meeting this year the committee is prepared to seek opinions from racers at the 2009 evnt and then set up the Vic. Titles 2010 and S/Classic 2010 to the new program.
If a definitive programme can be developed for the 09 Southern there may be more interest from 125 riders to attend . The only reason 125 riders would go to Oran Park is if the Southern was left with grids not condusive to safe racing . This of course applies to all classes of racing .
At last years Southern I rode a KH100 in P5 125 class and had a great meeting . I trust that there were no Classic 250s threatened by my 19hp bucket |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 7:32:16 PM
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Its too late for 2009.
The 125 riders advised Toddy of their plans, the committee based on that advise has now decided to use the Southern Classic as a venue to get a big survey done.
That is the best situation to cover all classes and more riders in one hit.
I guess if enough 125 riders contact us to advise they would enter the SC 2009, the committee would be mad not to create an event for them. But we would need a good number. So perhaps gert on the phones and get someresults for us.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 11:43:52 PM
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O.K. John who do we ring??? i am sure Toddy does not want us ringing him up all the time.
Common sense will tell anybody that 125s DO NOT MIX with 600 p5,,,its that simple,just put us in with the 250 p4 if you do not want us in the with the 250 classics ,by the way how many 250 classics are you concerned about 2-3 bikes at most or is it only one bike,big deal
SO just so we are all clear WHAT is the proposed program now??????
I think HMRAV should come out and make a clear statment about the program now before entrys are affected,you shooting yourself in the foot with this indescion...........
IF i enter my p5 125 now what races will i be in????? answer please |
125 alliance |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 07:21:49 AM
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I think a bit of respect for us would go a long way.
Exclamation marks, capitals and question marks are not the most pleasant way of talking with someone.
Common sense does not proove that 125 cannot mix with 600's.
Without wishing to predudice the final outcome, I will present the words of Rod Asher who attended the committee meeting this week.
He was stunned that people were moaning and whinging about having bigger or smaller bikes on the track with them. He dislikes the big bore solos, but he explained he learns to ride with them. He felt the 250 bloke who did not want 125's with him was a woose.
He cannot see what the problem with 125 and 600's is because he thought the 600's would be way out in front anyway.
As a committee person I am committed to getting more rides and more machiones at the events. Because I race I do not get the chance to watch each race and form an opinion about what is good for everybody, I rely on people with a better view of that world.
You comment about a single 250 classic 'big deal' will not help the solution.
It is comments like that that prevent serious consideration because people focus on the 'adverse' words instead of the topic.
The other factor we have to consider is that over the years the 125's have waxed and wained in numbers to theextent we slapped them where we thought it was best for the 1 0r 2 that turned up. 6 years ago we put in a effort on the phones to get 8 125's, the next year we thought they would front and they did not.
So some of this problem is caused by you 125 riders not phoning and encouraging each other to race.
Back to your question; what program. I have stated that in my previous entry.
We offer a full refund to people who withdraw before and event and let us know. As you stated its not good for Toddy to get all those calls, ring around yourselves and get the numbers and we will create a separate race thsi year.
The HMRAV has made a statement about the program the issue is you dont like it, do something then about getting numbers. We acknowledge the issue was rushed.
I can send you details of who has entered with us if you need them.
email me and I shall send it.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 10:53:45 AM
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With all due respect to Rod Asher it is my belief that he rides a P4 Suzuki 400.
How can this qualify him to tell 125 riders what is good for them?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 11:39:56 AM
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I can see things going around in circles!
The bottom line is everybody wants to race against his own kind and not have bigger machines to show them up in the evnt. They often use" for safety reasons" I dont want to race against them.
essentially I see the HMRAV will adopt a single all in race for 125's if they come in sufficient numbers, with the priviso that the 125 riders work amongst themselves to build the numbers. That seems fair.
I have seen the club boost numbers one year and have none the next, no wonder they are shy about a separate race now.
Good luck, man the phones and present the figures, thgat is what the club is saying. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 09:36:39 AM
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| If you make a better product people will buy it. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 12:37:17 PM
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So, in an attempt to build a better product how about reverting to capacity racing for all the main Southern Classic events?
This would mean
125cc all eras together,
250 P2 with 250 P3
250 P4 with 250 P5
350 P2 with 350 P3
350 P4 with 350 P5
500 P2 with 500 P3
500 P4 with 500 P5
Class C alone
Unlimited P2 with ulimited P3
Unlimited P4 with unlimited P5
Sidecars as normal.
Alternatively all P2 bikes could run in the Class C event.
This would most likely mean that the last of the Southern Classic races would be the last race of the day so to avoid finishing too early we could increase race distance to 8 or 10 laps for each of these events.
This would give competitors a direct comparison to help in conducting a survey.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2009 : 5:05:06 PM
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Anything happening?
It's like the Carlton Cemetery.
Cheers, John  |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2009 : 7:53:54 PM
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Nothing other than phone calls from 125 riders.
None have offered to ring around, they all want their entries back! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 08:46:51 AM
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Is that not a clear enough statement that something is horribly wrong?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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