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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 7:09:22 PM
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| Again, I fail to see why, John.As soon as there's a major problem, everyone flies into "Secret Squirrel" mode. Surely, with the exception of publishing info that's upsetting to family members, if we circulate relevant details it can only speed up any possible elimination of causal factors. Now, as sad and needless as the incident in question was, surely if everybody clams up about it and racing continues, you're solving nothing. I'm sure the unfortunate rider's family would like to think that whatever contributed to his sad demise could be eliminated as soon as possible to prevent any further similar incident. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 09:11:22 AM
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Glenn, I tried to email you but it seems the address registered on this site is not your current address.
Would you contact me please.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 5:21:47 PM
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| PM sent, mate. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 05:46:34 AM
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| Glenn, the fatality is still under investigation. It would be wise to read the coroner's report before commenting. At race meetings every last one of us has a duty of care which involves managing the risks. Winton staff are very well aware of their duty of care, others may not be. Someone must put their hand up and take responsibility for the death. I don't know who that will be, and neither do you. Sooner or later some of you guys must read the Standards Australia document 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport'. It has special relevance to race incidents. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 6:51:59 PM
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| That's the third time you've said someone has to put their hand up and take responsibility for a death. If everybody has exercised their duty of care, all forms are signed off and fees paid, then it needn't necessarily be attributable to someone left behind, and may be deemed a racing accident or misadventure. And I rather doubt someone will volunteer culpability by putting their hand up. As requested, I'll say no more on the matter for now. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 06:58:57 AM
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| Glenn, It's about the Coroner's court. Towards the end of the proceedings it's normal for him to ask 'who takes responsibility for this death?' And it usually the situation that someone who was in a position of authority at the meeting has to wear it. It's not about blame and charges, unless there was gross negligence involved. In the case of the marshall, Beveridge who was killed at the F1 GP at Albert Park, CAMS suddenly didn't want to be the 'controlling body' any more, and the argument went around in circles until Ron Grant ended up wearing it. He was ultimately in control! The recent fatality at Winton will bring the same procedure. I mentioned 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport' to you. In that there is a requirement to have a 'risk management plan' when running meetings. Everybody involved has a duty of care which involves managing the risk. If there is gross negligence, there may be consequences, and nobody is free from their responsibilities. Whoever was in control at the Hartwell meeting will be questioned, and so will Winton staff. It's standard procedure. The Coroner's report will be made public, you should read it. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 07:49:47 AM
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| Fair enough. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 11:15:01 AM
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Alan, have you seen or been involved in Winton's risk assessment plan? Is it available on request? Do you know when the coroner's report is expected to be handed down?
Standards Australia are not, as is commonly held, a govt instrumentality but are a private entity. Most Australian Standards are produced by the parties involved in them and are not an external mechanism, although they will and do draw on outside parties such as risk assessors. The Guide to Risk in Motorsport is really a template of what needs to be considered, it goes nowhere near specifiying actuals such as separation distances, velocities, surface friction co-efficients and the like. It maps out chains of responsibilities and broad areas to be considered. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 4:23:00 PM
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| Jason, is mainly correct and not only that, to answer GD, Workcover can step in and conduct their own investigation and apportion blame (negligence) according to their own investigation, charging people if so required. No doubt they will take into account the risk assessment tool and examine to see if the processes were followed. They will also look to see if costs were cut to circumvent the effectiveness of the objective of providing a safe and healthy environment - even in the risk assessment tool. People won't just stick up their hand go "oh gee twas I". As for the coroner's court statement by Alan - what a load of bollocks. The fact is even his own submission contradicts itself and supports the notion that people won't own up, particularly organisational entities, thats why the Workcover legislation in Victoria makes people (directors of businesses) individually liable to lose their houses. By the way, the Workcover legislation is applicable because the track is a business premises. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 10:37:38 AM
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Can't help myself here, and apologies for my pedantic nature.
The correct regulator in Victoria is WorkSafe, WorkCover is the compensation insurance arm. Australian Stabdards are not enforcable instruments, they are guides as Jason rightly points out.
I would be surprised if WorkSafe have not already been involved in the Winton incident, as they were at Broadford not so long back (hence he test and tag requirement for electrical gear). WorkSafe wll seek action against the organisation first, under S21 of the Vic Act, for failure to provide a safe workplace. They will then look at individiuals but only were willful misconduct has occured. It is rare for the Coroner to aportion blame, but rather make recommendations to a body that has contributed to the incident. If the findings are sufficiently serious, Vic Police/WorkSafe might well intervene under their respective leislation. How do I know this? I have a Doctorate in Occupational Hazard Management!!!! (Blowing my own trumpet again!) Cheers, Tony. NB. New Harmonised Federal Legislation comes into force from 01/01/12, and individuals face severe penealties under the definition of "officer" in an organsiation. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 10:46:06 AM
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| Whoops, should be - I am completing my Doctorate, I have a Masters in the field. Got a bit carried away there for a sec. !Tony. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 11:31:54 AM
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| Well done peen I've got workcover on the brain due to work issues, apologies. Seems we have Phd's on the job everywhere but they won't listen. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 07:56:29 AM
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| Of course Worksafe have been involved in investigating the Winton incident, they are the 'competent authority'. The Standards Australia document is not enforceable, but it exists, sets an expectation, and it's relevant. I believe you will find it will be used as a basis for comparison in the coroner's court. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 08:07:03 AM
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Oldkwak
'As for the coroner's court statement by Alan - what a load of bollocks'
In the past there was an incidence where a witness wasn't subpoenad because the coroner felt they would use their right to remain silent, and not self-incriminate. But the fact remains that if noone takes responsibility the proceedings can turn nasty. Someone must be seen to be in control of the meeting, and that they have fulfilled their duty of care. And that will probably be the end to it. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 08:19:56 AM
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| Jason, You are correct. Standards Australia is not a government body, and the Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport, is not part of legislation. However it exists for a reason. It was written by a committee with a few Worksafe people, several NSW police, reps from all of the motorsport controlling bodies. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 08:23:00 AM
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| The circuit owners were also on the commitee. The process was transparent and the Guide was subject to comment from the public before release. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 12:37:15 PM
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A Dr of safety!!
Where will it end?
HELP US PLEASE. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 12:54:38 PM
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| In the Nanny State we are heading for! |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 1:06:47 PM
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| Actually my studies are around Emergency Management and how it can be done better. Nanny State - Hmmm, I prefer to think of my role as the one that proactively assists people to go home in the same state of good health and well being that they arrive in at work each day, or even better!! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 2:04:36 PM
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| Can you help me with the same program in my shed |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 2:43:06 PM
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| Ha, now you're asking the impossible!! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 9:03:14 PM
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| Nanny state? Prior to 2001 there was a death on a building site in the Melbourne CBD every two weeks on average. These days 3 unions cooperate to do Job Safety Analyses, and deaths are a rare occurrence. The change was an unfunded productivity gain for employers. And saved the public purse millions of dollars by not needing to rehabilitate incident victims. Isn't the 'nanny state' sh1thouse? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 07:02:03 AM
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| I think it's really nice that Peeno is doing a PhD in an OHS rela ted field. But I'd point out that the use of risk assessments as a basis of OHS didn't originate in universities. Most academics don't really know where their backside is on anything which relates to a real job. These lunchtime heros teach engineering but have forgotten to include Project Management subjects - a basic requirement in industry. Any of us who've been around a while know the system runs on bullsh1t, but we all have to pay homage to it and get bits of paper from universities, before we can get paid at a decent rate. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 09:13:50 AM
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| 33 years in the field and only recent post grad quals. Desk bound academic, I think not. Experience in Construction, Health, Agriculture and the Chemical industry. Exactly what qual's/experience do you hold Allan, you must have some quals as you, as usual, seem to be an expert in the field. Forgive me if I appear to be taking this thread off to another realm, but as they say "Red Rag to a Bull" and all that. Enough from me! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 9:48:28 PM
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I just don't get the anti-academic seam that runs through this country. I just don't get it.
How's this Alan - I'm finishing an ARTS degree, how useless is that? Wherever it is you've been around for a long time, its not University Departments, Engineering or otherwise. Last time I looked project management was an integral part of civil engineering at the very least. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2011 : 07:11:31 AM
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Jason & Peeno I spent 40 years in engineering establishments as an industrial chemist. I've worked in development, manufacturing, and safety jobs. I'm tertiary qualified in applied chemistry, OHS, and welding technology. I've participated on several Standards Australia committees, including the one which affects safety in motor sport. My recent experience includes heading up laboratories in explosives factories, acting as project manager of manufacture of hand grenades at Benalla. So I know quite a bit about safety. From time to time, we have lost people, and I've had the experience of answering questions in court, I know what is involved.
Jason, I wish I'd done an arts degree, I didn't need the head f@rk associated with science! Oh, and by the way, in Goulburn Ovens TAFE, Project Management is only taught as part of an IT course. I worked in a company with 28 Draughtsmen and Engineers. None of the engineers had ever had formal training in project management, even though the company regularly handled projects worth up to $20M ! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2011 : 10:18:21 AM
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If only we'd known this before it'd explain you getting your back up so much about related issues!!
And here was me thinking aren't you a bit excitable to be around explosives? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 07:59:43 AM
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| With explosives you do everything to a system, and nice and slowly. Same as racing motorcycles where you force yourself to start slowly, and work up to speed systematically. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 08:07:48 AM
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| Jason, the way to get your head straight about your own mortality is to stand in the nitration house when they are making nitroglycerine. One spark of static electricity, and you could be instantly vaporised. You get a better understanding of the concept of risk. The batch size was about 100Kg, so there wouldn't be much left except a hole in the ground. And the tragedy is that it's happened a few times - indirectly one of the reasons I'm living in Benalla. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 09:28:13 AM
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Alan, I 've got an appreciation of that already. We had two fatalities at our Mexican plant in the lead azide area for much the same reasons. Plus when we did our first export of Class 1 ex Mexico they were bunkering the ship at the same time as the cargo was alongside! And that's after the containers had been opened whilst guys smoked beside it. In truth these are not as risky as it sounds but you get the point.
I wouldn't compare bike racing to working with explosives though - I didn't start slowly and didn't need to. In fact my best lap time in my first ever race meet, was only 2 secs slower than the last time I raced at the same track two years later, and after quite a bit of work on the bike. |
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Winton comments
