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Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2001 : 03:41:12 AM
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Just a note to start off this forum. I'd really like to hear our members opinions on the following:
I think the practice of racing Forgotten Era separately from Post Classic should be discontinued, except for championships. In P5 any four stroke 750 (Japanese)can easily be beaten by 750s from P4 (British), the fly in the ointment is the two stroke 750, 350, 250 from P5.
Let's run up to 250 P5 Two strokes in the 750 class (four stroke), and 250 and over two strokes in the unlimited (four stroke) class.
This would mean two classes of P4/P5 bikes, a lightweight and an unlimited. We'd see an unlimited class with Rex, the Harris framed Laverda and 350 & 750 TZ's and H2/H2Rs. We'd see the Lightweight class with 750 Nortons and Hondas and Z750s, with TZ250's etc.
This would be a way of catering for P5 and P4, in races similar to those of the early seventies (particularly the Lightweight class).
It should provide better racing for both spectators and competitors.
Alfonso
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2001 : 09:44:04 AM
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Al- a Great idea - and it will work. It will also encourage the cheaper large F/E 750s missing from our grids. The Z650, Z500, the CB750, Z750, GSX750, GS750 . The only suggestions I'd make are these - For publicity purposes, name the classes Historic F1 and Historic F2. It will relate to Mr Average a bit better and intice him to think about P/C & F/E bikes as an alternative to moderns a bit more. Remebering the early days of F1 racing were actually the forgotten era bikes.
u/l f/e bikes can often be given an extremely good run by a well set up 750 p/c, such as the BMW75/5 750s here, especially if they are bored to 810/860. Indeed, at many tracks they would in fact be on equal par with all but the fastest 1200cc f/e japs. So, it may pay to 'seed' machines/riders as the buckets do here, shunting them into classes matching rider/bike combinations. If any 650/750cc bike/rider continually blitzes the lightweight class, put him up to HF1. By doing this you would remove the domination factor in HF2, allowing more persons in the lightweights to feel that thay have a chance to progress through the lightweight ranks.
The other thing - allow bikes of any age / capacity to enter the unlimiteds if they so wish. This seems important to me as we've seen 250s here get placings in front of u/l bikes on smaller tracks. however, they have not received the due recognition, as here, in pcransw land, the tally is seperated for capacities, meaning that even if the 3rd u/l bike was beaten by a 250/350, the u/l bike still receives 3rd u/l trophy, instead of it going to the 250/350 who may have fought valiantly to achieve that outright placing. Ignore capacities in the U/L field finish and just go for actual finishers across the line. Make it possible for that fast250 to take home 2 trophies and points- one for coming first in HF2 and another for the outright placing.
When you start racing these two classes, you may not have a huge number of bikes to fill the grids. If so, mix them up as much as you can to put more bikes on the grids, creating much better racing and viewing for spectators. Still give out seperate trophies for U/L and for L/W,
You may wish to consider starting a Ultra Lightweight HF3 Class for 125s/150s/175s. Often the riders of these machines don't like gridding up with larger bikes ( sometimes even with 250s here) and prefer to be seperated. These can often be gridded with the buckets for good racing. These would also encourage buckets which happen to be F/E eligible to enter as f/e and not buckets, boosting f/e F3 numbers.
What do you guys think ?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2001 : 10:15:37 AM
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I think the Ultralightweight HF3 class should involve two strokes up to 175cc and four strokes up to 350cc. An 80cc Moriwaki would beat most 350 four strokes but a good honda 350 four should give them a run for their money.
Alfonso |
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2001 : 8:01:16 PM
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Well I've been busy talking to a few people about these ideas and have so far noted the following - there is a reasonable amount of scope and interest to get more 500-750cc-900cc fours on the grids. There are already a number of midsized ducatis racing but there are very few jap 750s even though they are cheap and available. I'd recommend the following
ONLY for your club rounds, allow 750cc fourstroke fours and 900cc twins into HF2, but to encourage cheaper and simpler racing, force them to have - cosmetics, forks, brakes, swingarm, carbs and wheels of original spec for that model as released in street trim in or before 1980. Allow them the use of treaded tyres only, no slicks / wets, no tyre warmers ( Not a safety issue - post classic have been doing this for years).
This would create a "SUPERSTOCK" class within HF2, hopefully made up of CB750s, GSX 750s, Z500/650/750s, CB500s, Duck500s/ 600s etc. These bikes would still be eligible for normal forgotten era in this trim of course, and so could run at open meetings of f/e p/c also. It would more readily identify era bikes to the public etc.... If anyone in HF2 wanted to, still let them race in HF1 also ( maybe hit them up for more entry money). If anyone wants to go beyond the above modification criteria, they can go into HF1 only?
What do you think of 750cc vs 900 ? The 1000s can go into HF1 altogether.
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2001 : 06:13:38 AM
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I think we need to write a specification for the type of bikes to race in HF1,HF2, and HF3. I agree that the use of the year of manufacture is not the important issue, but I don't think deltabox framed bikes should be included yet. Also we should maintain a list of appropriate models for converted road bikes, which are eligible to be raced in each class. The list should be indicative only and not the be all and end all. I think the good thing about this type of racing would be that it could include the Manxes etc, and they would still be competitive.
Thinking about HF2, my Seeley-Norton would run very well in a class which catered for up to 900cc twins, and Jap750 fours and 250 two strokes. I get ahead of some of the stock 750 Hondas already, and I'd love to have a go at some of those early Ducatis.
Alfonso |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2001 : 06:21:20 AM
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If HF2 ever gets off the ground, I think I'll have to build a Suzuki GS750 engined XR69 replica. With the bits that are around these days you could build something which really handled, stopped and goes. It would really look the part too. As you said Zoli, there are thousands of Jap 750's out there. It'd be cheaper racing for all of us.
Alfonso |
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2001 : 9:19:08 PM
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firstly, I didn't say that year of manufacture is NOT important. it is !It's just that IF by coincidence a model did not change in 81 or 82, it IS eligible. Let's stay with the GCRs for year of eligibility of 1980 for P5 !. there are no deltabox framed bikes of 1980 that I'm aware of is there ? And I hope the grids work out in favour of you getting a better mix of racing ..
After some conversations and thought ( I do that usually after writing) I
suggest the following in relation to ideas voiced earlier ....
Continue with Historic F1 as suggested where any capacity P4/P5 bike can
enter if they wish ( as well as in H F2 if they are eligible for maybe more
entry fee?)
Forget 17" wheels for smaller capacities. Instead, include the following
bikes in HF2 -
an 'H F2 Production' Class allowing only bikes which satisfy the following -
750cc three/Four cylinder and 900cc twin fourstrokes and 400cc twin twostrokes, up to 1980 models, with
bodywork, (paintscheme also maybe??????), calipers, forks, triple clamps,
wheels, wheels sizes, discs, swingarm, Carb bodies, frame (bracing allowed),
engine cases and capacity as per the actual model's release to the public in
australia before dec 31 1980.... ONLY treaded street or 'race only' tyres
are allowed, with no WETS or slicks or piggyback damping rear shocks or tyre
warmers.
These bikes are cheap to set up and would give the 250-350s a good run with
plenty of competition I think... I am now starting to build such a CB750...
then maybe we could also have a HF1 Production for any bikes to the same
spec...
and if anyone wanted to build a superbike with 17s or other non spec stuff, they MUST become ineligible for the 'Production' classes and
IF if too many people are dissapointed with not seperating post classic and
f/e, than OK, also keep score for PC in each of H F1 and H F2 grids ...
So the grids would look like this --
GRID A - HF2 and HF2 production, with points/ trophies for HF2,
HF2Production and Post Classic F2.
GRID B - HF1 and HF1 production, with points/ trophies for HF1,
HF1Production and Post Classic F1.
Leave P/c F/e 125 cc two strokes and up to 200???cc fourstrokes in H F3 and
grid with buckets until numbers allow another grid...
What do you guys think ? a bit of feedback would be nice....
Zoltan
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2001 : 12:51:18 AM
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Zoli, I pretty much agree with what you are saying about HF1, HF2 and HF3. The aspect of production bikes in these classes, is similar to a comment I made to Winton Motor Raceway about the Six Hour Race in September 23rd. There should be 'prototype' and 'production' sections in each class. This approach was successfully tried at the Bol D'Or in the seventies, when TZ750's ran in the prototype class.
My comment about XR69 Suzuki and RS1000 Honda replicas was serious. I notice that nobody has bothered to build a replica of the Bill Patterson Daytona CB750 Honda, and I would have thought that would be a worthwhile project. We didn't even see an XR69 or RS1000 in Australia. But again building replicas from CB900 and GS1000 would have a lot of value.
Alfonso |
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Former Member
deleted
31 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2001 : 12:21:25 PM
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Guys - the reason noone builds hottie 750cc P5 bikes is because there is no trophy class to run them in competitively as at the moment they'd have to run with the open 1100cc bikes. A Formula 2 class would allow 750s, both production and mofified, to have an equal footing. Than building a 750cc XR replica would get a good run.
There is no point in having a Panel of eligibility run by us as the governing body is not us, it's MA and the GCRs. F1 and F2 will only be available for bikes which are eligible under P4 or P5 rules ( P3 - would you really want to run your bike with 1200cc GXSs ? in F1 ? You could enter as a P4 bike into both the P4 races(held seperately) and the F1 grids. )
I am suggesting to limit all fourstrokes to 750cc capacity for F2 as bikes such as the GTS860 and 900ss ducks should really be in F1, not F2
Please note my concerns re you guys 'guiding' racing thinking in Vic(Oz) with discussion on your website - you apparently are not a club or promoter who puts racing on at the moment. I think you need to make a lot of contact with the club(s) who do, such as Hartwell etc. The ideas being thrown around on your site may have no influence on their gridding . Have you guys discussed these ideas with them? Are you guys planning on forming an MA affiliated and recognised club so that you can put races on? Who do you race your bike with at the moment Alan ?
The summary of my proposal so far includes -
Let’s have 2 grids of Forgotten Era racing …
A/ one grid of FORGOTTEN ERA FORMULA 2 bikes, being made up of a category of ‘modified F2’ and another of ‘production F2’, each getting their own points and trophies.
B/ another grid of FORGOTTEN ERA FORMULA 1 bikes, being made up of a category of ‘modified F1’ and another of ‘production F1’, each getting their own points and trophies.
THE DEFINITIONS-
FORGOTTEN ERA – to include any motorcycle eligible for P4 or P5 GCRs
FE Modified classes – bikes which do not fit into ‘production FE' eligibility
Forgotten Era Production formula for both F1 and F2 – Bikes which have the following components as per the specs of that make and model as existed in Australia no later than Dec 31 1980…
· Frame - may be braced, must retain original head angle and rear shock mounts
· Engine cases and covers ( alternator cover may be replaced)
· Triple clamps, forks, swingarm
· both wheels ( not just the size, but the actual wheel )
· calipers, discs
· carburettors with original venturi diameter ( chokes, airbox, internals may be removed/ replaced/ modified)
· model’s original displacement, valve sizes and maximum camshaft lift must be maintained
· bodywork ( seat materials may be modified but not replaced )
· Ignition pickups
Choice of coils, exhaust system, porting is free
Tyres MUST be treaded from the manufacturer, Tyre warmers to be disallowed for production machines and only pump 100 RON Avgas or lesser allowed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FORGOTTEN ERA FORMULA 2 modified
Fourstroke machines of max 750cc displacement, two strokes of max 400cc displacement
FORGOTTEN ERA FORMULA 2 production
Machines satisfying F2 formula AND production formula
FORGOTTEN ERA FORMULA 1 modified
Any machine eligible under GCRs for P4 or P5
FORGOTTEN ERA FORMULA 1 production
Same as above for F2 production
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2001 : 1:31:18 PM
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Zoltan,
We have never said we are a club, but we are a promoter of the sport. Just because you do not run race meetings, it does not mean that you are not promoting the sport of Classic Motorcycle Racing or Post Classic for that matter.
We promote the sport through this web site which is a national web site, but most other states are too scared to comment about things that piss them off. This is why you see alot of comments from Victorians as we want others to know. You can not say we do not promote the sport. Just look at what we do here. You even wanted to setup your own site as well.
Come on you people from all over Australia, stop being chickens and logon and let others know what is going on in your area.
Regards,
David Greening
Classic Motor Cycling |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2001 : 09:15:34 AM
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David, I think this web site offers an excellent opportunity for some democratic input. I'm surprised at the number of hits it gets, but dismayed that riders who are not fazed by high speed and crashes are too shy to have their say.
I recently retired and now have some time to go racing. It's my ambition to ride in a few races where the competition is fairly equal, I might even get off my backside and twist the throttle a bit harder. It's not going to happen while I'm riding in events with other bikes with 40 more horsepower.
I'm going to have my say. I've been cried down at club meetings by people who didn't even ride a bike in their lifetimes. Keep up the good work. In 45 years of motorcycling this is the only real forum which has been available to me.
Alfonso |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2001 : 09:07:37 AM
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OK our web site/forum is a purly non profit site (it has cost David quite a few "bob"), it was started cause we felt that some how? We were not having feedback between states as too how we all felt about what was going on!! The money spent could have been spent getting some more of our race bikes back on to the race track!, but we felt the need for a forum such as this to help 'our' sport get back onto track? Or should we/I just go back to fixing race bikes for others to race for me, and not bother about keeping the web going for the benefit of the sport of Classic/Post Classic/P5 racing??
Allan Greening |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2002 : 6:07:59 PM
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Zoli, I noticed your comments regarding our 'guiding' our sport by use of this web site. First let me say I have never really been actively involved in 'historic' racing. I raced the short stroke 500cc Triton which Allan Greening still has, in Allpowers C Grade for about twenty years against H2's, RD's, Z900's. I do know a bit about racing back then, and I have something to say about what's happening in historic racing now. First we have to look at what we are trying to achieve. If it's re-creation of racing as it was in the era, that's one thing, but remember, it wasn't so good. If you had a bike of 500cc or over you might get two rides, one in allpowers C, the other in a 500cc feature race. All the sensible riders rode R5's, or RD's in my day, and they were hard to beat on a 500cc Triumph, Z900's were unbeatable, H2's with standard silencers wwere beatable.
I suggest we should look at developing eligibility rules which will make the sport as good as it can be. We need a couple of reasonably cheap and reliable types of bike which will allow young riders to compete in each class. The rules should also cater for InCA riders, and others from America (AHRMA rules).
I agree with Bob Blythe that in America the rules have been developed to reign in the smarties, and they really know how to get bikes going there. the AHRMA rules might be a good basis for a set of international historic racing rules.
I still race, and I am a member of Hartwell Club. But it's getting much dearer, and the current rules don't promote any type of racing in which I can really be competitive with a Seeley Norton 850. I have a TZ350G, but the expense of racing it isn't justified by the level of competition in forgotten era.
So what do we do - have a ride at the seniors meeting at Mount Gambier for $50 for the two days, have a bit of fun, and forget the rest of the bull****.
Seriously though, unless the rules are updated to include/make competitive, all the ducatis (70's and 80's), unit triumphs,bsa's, smaller capacity jap fours, I think we can forget it. The spectacle of Rex and Tony on their 1000cc AMA style Honda's touring around in front of a field of smaller capacity british bikes is a bit stupid.
Another thing, I've heard riders complaining about special frames on bikes such as my Seeley. Anyone can build a copy, and the good bikes in the historic era mostly had special frames. That's what it's all about - riding something which really goes, stops, and handles, and something which was about in the era.
An Egli frame can be built for about $1000, and a Laverda Alpina motor can be bought for $1500 - would make a superb Forgotton Era 500, if there were separate races for two strokes and four strokes.
Alan Cotterell |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 10:42:34 AM
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| What came of this discussion, is there a specification HMRAV could use to fit in with yours? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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