| Author |
 Topic  |
| |
Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 08:05:29 AM
|
|
I have a problem answering kids who want to get into road racing. I cannot think of a class of road racing that the kids can get into as easily as they can start in motocross! There are few young guys in the Winton Motorcycle Club who really want to get onto the bitumen. The bike needs to cost less than about $4000.Have you blokes got any ideas?
|
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 08:39:59 AM
|
| Alan, the restricting factor in this is age. 9 to 13 year olds up to 70cc,13 to 16 year olds up to 80cc 2 stroke or 160cc 4 stroke. 15 and over can ride 125GP. In terms of value for money an old RS125 is hard to beat. For those under 15 they have the choice of Honda CBR150 or Metrakit. It may also be possible to find a YSR Yamaha. There were some in Queensland a few years ago. The Moriwakis have all gone to N.S.W. for the big boys to play on. Hope this helps. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
 |
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 11:00:54 AM
|
| Alan, the Hondas are from Redwing in Victoria 9459 5553, Metrakit 9729 8911. Bernie Hatton 07 5527 2388 may still have some Yamahas and the Team Calamari site is well worth looking at. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 11:16:45 AM
|
| I forgot to mention the pocket bikes, these are the cheapest way to get into roadracing from $200 - $5,OOO contact You must be logged in to see this link. for information. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
|
|
|
Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 6:50:57 PM
|
Hi Guys,
Other points to think of is fitting them into a race programme and providing adequate coaching. We have started a junior series this year which has proven to be quite successful and looks like growing. All riders are using the Moriwaki 80s or the Honda 150s. Dont forget that juniors cannot be on the track at the same time as seniors, either in racing or practice. The biggest obstacle is finding the track time for them as you need seperate practice and races. We have been lucky in as much as the Historic Club over here have supported the concept when really it should be the modern bike clubs that do so as that is where the kids will end up if they go on with racing. Either way they do need support from someone.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 7:18:56 PM
|
Yes Alan, some timely reminders there.
Broadford started a junior programme for all codes in earnest four years ago and I have to say it is going very well. This year the numbers were enough for the road track to allocate Junior only days at the weekend.
As well in the school holidays junior camps from Wednesday to Saturday.
As with all programmes the full support of parents and MV coaching staff are paramount.
One 13 year old is away this Saturday to Germany for a test at the Sachsenring |
Edited by - Patrick on 21 Aug 2007 7:21:39 PM |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 7:55:13 PM
|
If parents are wanting to get their kids prepared for roadracing then there is the option to get into Junior Dirt Track [same start up age as MX]
The skills they can learn sliding around on the loose surface are great to carry through to roadracing.
Just a few Victorian contacts for your info.[hope you don't mind David]
Junior Dirt Track Steve Guest 0419 588108
Junior Road Race Jen Diles 9729 8911
Junior Motocross Trica Barnett 0404 742727
Junior Speedway Gary Timmerman 9329 5637 |
Edited by - Patrick on 21 Aug 2007 10:44:15 PM |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 8:39:28 PM
|
I recently saw races with about 20 kids on 150cc Fireblades at Winton. It's an excellent class, however it seems to be pretty expensive. I believe a CBR150R Honda eligible for the series costs about $7000! I would have thought a motolite class using Chinese bikes would be cheaper and easier for parents. I cannot remember of any road racing class which is as cheap as MX. That's where most of the kids end up racing. I understand about the cost of hiring the circuit, however I've seen bike meetings at Winton where some races have 6 bikes on a grid which is licensed to take 48. Some of the kids are keen to get onto the bitumen. If we can find a reasonably cost effective way of making it happen, we'd probably all benefit!
I take John's point about old RS125s, I'll pass it on! Thanks Fellas. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 9:27:20 PM
|
All racing has a cost and unfortunatly MX is just as expensive as other forms when you take travel into consideration.
Most of the kids who attend our junior days are from Melbourne - or so we thought - they now fly in from Queensland and Sydney and some drive right past Winton to attend the Broadford Junior days.
I took a call this evening regarding machines being sent over from Perth for our training camp and Metrakit race series final in October. Winners will attend the world final in Spain - paid for by the promotor.
The promoter has also obtained sponsorship to pay all track hires and huge prize money for the feature 125GP Race - riders for this race [one week prior to the MOTOGP]are from NZ as well.
|
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2007 : 08:20:16 AM
|
| Great to see interest in the juniors. They are the future of our sport and we MUST do everything possible to encourage them. Unfortunately the way the rules are currently worded would seem to preclude juniors from riding 4 stroke buckets. We really should open up this class as it is the cheapest entry and there are probably a number of bikes lurking in the back of garages, particularly in N.S.W. I absolutely commend the junior days at Broadford as the best thing since disposable nappies. Let's work together to encourage participation. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 05:12:30 AM
|
| For some reason I don't feel kids should start racing on very old converted road bikes. They don't have to do this in MX, and I cannot see why a road racer should be any dearer than a good MXer machine. There must be some suitable Chinese bikes which could run in the Motolite class? Someone suggested the kids should ride old Honda RS125s and that's not a bad idea. It'd be really good if we could find an entry level class for them as cheap as MX. (Incidentally, travel costs apply to all motorcycle racing so are a bit of a red herring). |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 05:20:14 AM
|
Those kids on the 150cc Fireblades are really worth watching, There's some really good riders amongst them, and the bikes are really sharp little jiggers! I'd actually forgotten how agressive we were at that age!
To enter the class, I believe they have to buy the bikes from Honda direct, and they're about $8000. I suppose it depends how badly you want your kid to be the next Valentino Rossi?? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 4:00:36 PM
|
| Alan C you are right about the CBR Hondas, they must be bought from the nominated state dealer and come with some form of certification for them to run in the class. It is possible to buy them from Thailand much cheaper than the $7,000 or so that they cost here,however, without the certificate they can't run in the series. To the best of my knowledge there is no 'ROADRACE' bike available from China. There are plenty of dirt/motard bikes but the quality is, at best, suspect. I think a 4 stroke bucket would be a better introduction bike than anything out of China and would cost about the same as a heap of junk that doesn't know what it is supposed to be.(motard) Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 29 Aug 2007 4:06:07 PM |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 9:09:59 PM
|
How could anyone get to be a competent road racer by riding a motard. I haven't ridden one, however the steering geometry looks wrong. You don't get good by riding around some rubbish's handling problems, even if you do it for years. You just learn to crash gracefully!
I'm still seriously looking for something the kids can compete with, however I believe it's important to not give them monumental problems right from the start. There must be some road racing machine that's as cost effective as a MX bike! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2007 : 3:32:07 PM
|
| Alan, this is the first year that we have had junior racing (discounting the Moriwakis) and there are some restrictions imposed by the wording in the M.A. manual. Hopefully we can get these restrictions removed for 2008 so that our young riders have a greater choice. One good thing is that as juniors move on there will be used bikes coming onto the market and this should bring costs down. Unfortunately it will cost around $9,000+ to get a junior to a track not allowing for a transporter. We must find a way to get the cost down to an affordable level (whatever that is???) to give the kids some hope. Perhaps an "adopt a rich dad" programme is needed. This is why I push the bucket idea, say $1,500 for a bike plus leathers etc. could be on the track for around $3,000. SADLY, as I interpret the rule book, buckets are precluded if they have clip-ons and rear set foot pegs. Just my thoughts. John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2007 : 7:36:17 PM
|
Alan - can I suggust a search on the Honda NSR50, lots of racing in the US and Asia - we have seven of them at Broadford - all for sale, low hours.
Before the introduction of the CBR150 and Metrakit racing series we had thoughts on obtaining another ten or twelve which may have been a good start up class.
Lots of the young guys had their first taste of the black stuff on one of the NSR50s. All of the days held were cutting edge stuff - in fact most of the rules were changed as a result of what went on. The support from all was huge....one example, Don Stafford donated a set of junior size leathers so that no one missed out ...other parents helped where they could
I have some great photos of the NSR50s, they are great little bikes, parts are easy to obtain and they are simple to maintain. [I can email photos if anyone is interested]
Juniors on both Honda and Metrakit racing at this weekends Victorian State Titles - practice from 9:00am tomorrow [Friday] |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 9:54:54 PM
|
What we need is this, with a 150cc engine:
You must be logged in to see this link.
The NSR50 looks great, pity it isn't the right capacity for supalite or motolite etc. If they were 100cc, they'd be great |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 10:08:56 PM
|
John, I know you guys love your buckets, however for a kid starting out there are too many wanys to go wrong as far as safety is concerned. The attraction of the Honda CBR150R class is that the bikes are evenly matched, and it's down to the rider. As you well know a problem with historic racing is that the most money wins. The lack of decent capacity classes encourages the 'bigger is better' mentality, and the old motors give up that much quicker.
It's the reasom 'supermono' has failed. I can point you two about 3 blown bikes due to the massive oversizes in capacity in the class. It takes a really good four stroke single to put up with a huge piston giving 700cc. For a kid starting out, I suggest it's important to have a good handling standard racing bike. No big advantages. (No H100 Hondas to cream them.) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 10:51:45 PM
|
I am sure that anyone close to the junior scene is aware of the problems that have surfaced.
Broadford did give a day of free track time to see if they could sort the problem.
All a bit hush - hush ............
The CBR150R has a fault that has seen a number returned to the suppliers.
I am not sure of acotrel's stance, but it sure is way off what is happping at the coal face of junior racing.
We are very happy to support all junior events but the drum at this time has two beats, one has a serious problem and the other does not.
Get on down to Broadford this weekend and see for yourself.
The Metrakit 80 kids can get into the 66sec mark - some 125GP bikes are sort of 8secs beyond this..... not that we compare.
|
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 07:00:25 AM
|
Patrick, the reason I've asked the question is that it was raised at the Winton Motorcycle Club, and I seriously don't know the answer. The question is simple - how do kids get into road racing as cost effectively as MX? What is the new bike they can buy, and where can they race it?
I cannot see the difference in value between an MX bike, and a road racer. Entry fees might be a bit higher for road racing, however the rest of the costs should be similar. I would have thought it was possible to buy something new to run in motolite class?
The aspect of the rules governing kids in road racing is another issue, let's handle that later.
(I'm not going to go back and suggest the little darlings should race buckets, it's really got to be something new,competitive, and priced about the same as a reasonably good MX bike.)
|
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 07:05:04 AM
|
| Patrick, The NSR50 s look good, however why would anyone buy one when the capacity limit for watercooled two strokes in motolite is 80cc? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 09:12:30 AM
|
| Well Alan, I am happy to report that the juniors at Broadford put on some great racing. I was especially encouraged to see young Al Phillis going very well on a Moriwaki. These are still around and I believe can be found for around $3,500 if they haven't all gone to N.S.W. for New Era racing. The greatest problem with any form of motorsport has always been COST and anything we can do to bring the cost down can only help the sport to grow. I reckon a kid on a bike is far better than a kid wishing for a bike. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 10:59:54 PM
|
John, 'a kid wishing for a bike' can buy a MXer fairly cheaply and be competitive in a established racing class. What can a kis use a moriwaki f or next year whenhe has outgr own the class? If the NSR50 was a n NSR80, it would be eligible for an established road race class - motolite. That would mean the kid/parent could easily sell it or continue racing in 'adult' classes without the expense of changing bikes. There are plenty of really good motorcycles you can buy, not many of them are genuinely competitive racers. I'll be answering the kids tomorow night. I believe the answer is the CBR150R or an RS125.
In conversation with someone more involved in selling bikes than myself, he pointed out that the kids racing is more expensive that it is for us adults. In addition racing MX makes much more sense than road racing, both in machinery cost, and the level of competition.
My interst in motorcycling is primarily in road racing, but I cannot in all conscience recommend it to child club members at this time.
Can you please arrange for me to receive the programmne and regs for last Sunday's kid's meeting at Broadford? I'll give this a rethink. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 08:32:44 AM
|
Alan C, the meeting at Broadford was a round of the Vic. championships which included juniors. Well done Preston!!! The bikes were mostly Metrakits, a few Hondas, and, as far as I know only Al was on a Moriwaki. The Moriwaki being 80cc is eligible for Motolite if the rider wishes to ride it after getting too old to be a junior. However I would hope that most would then recycle their 80s and get into 125GP. This would help in reducing the entry cost in the future. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 10:36:23 AM
|
John, I've done a search for 'moriwaki' and I can't find a current supplier. I understand the bikes used Honda MX motors, watercooled of 80cc. HOwever I wonder about the gear ratios for those motors? Is there a close set available. I was talking to someone a while ago, and apparently there's no easy way to reduce the capacity of an RS125 motor to get a good gear set?
These's something abot this kid's racing nd motolite, that doesn't make sense. The limits for motolite are 185cc for two valve four strokes, 150 for 4 valve four strokes, 100cc for aircooled two strokes, and 80cc for wathercooled two strokes? What are the current machines which fit these classes? It seems to me that anyone who wants to compete well in motolite, must find an old H100 Honda. I suggest the kids classes should correlate with one of the motolite classes for machines.
It appears to me that for me to advise parents to buy any type of road racer, except an RS125 for kids would be irresponsible. If the kid is under age, he could use an RS125 to practice until he is old enough to race with adults? Then the RS125 would be competitive and not just money down the drain! I believe the deal with Yamaha involving the naked R6 costs $7000, and involves tyres and entry fees. In comparison, to pay that for a metrakit, moriwaki, or CBR150R is unrealistic! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 6:13:59 PM
|
| Perhaps an answer to getting kids into road racing might lie with grading. In NSW years ago the grades of riders included 'D Grade'. Perhaps it would be possible to have 'D grade' exclusively for Juniors? Then the kids could ride in the 125 GP Class in events for 'D grade', and the situation could be controlled by MV/MA if a rider was to be upgraded to C grade and ride with adults? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 6:50:35 PM
|
Why not stop trying to reinvent the wheel. There is a class for juniors and although it is a new venture it does seem to be working, the proof will be at Phillip Island when they get down there. The kids we have seen in WA really coming along nicely and I believe we need to let the current concept run its course for at least another year before making changes.
YES motor sports are expensive, there is no way to change that. Road racing is more so because of the extra costs involved, leathers for a start istead of the trendy gear Motocrossers wear, and of course the old bogey of track hire which blows road racing away compared to Moto X. Quite simply it costs and there is no simple way around it other than collectively getting off our backsides and finding sponsorship for a series and reducing costs by subsidy.
Just a little more for you guys to think of but I will say that in our state small as it is the current system seems to be working and only time will tell how far it goes. They all want to emulate Casey Stoner so lets hope he keeps going well for a few years yet.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 11:07:32 PM
|
Alan, I'm not interested in reinventing the wheel! At the club meeting tonight I suggested that the kids and parents forget junior road racing for 12 months. There are young guys who just want a ride, and I'll be letting them ride my RD250LC on a practice day. One of the fathers pointed out he didn't want to buy a bike right away, but is just interested in letting his kid try riding on the bitumen circuit. I wonder what Honda are putting back into the series to justify the corner on the market it means to them? $8000 for a CBR150R is a lot for a bike you can get as a grey import for $1500!! (Do we have the 'free market' economy yet, or does it only mean reduced wages to all of us?)
I suggest like a lot of these bright ideas kids road racing might go the way of sound of singles. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 3:54:02 PM
|
I was talking to our loca l friendly Honda dealer. He gave me a brochure of current models of Hondas available in Australia. Apparently the CBR150R used in the kids series is made in Thailand and imported specially for the series. That's all very nice, however the current small Fireblade imported into Australia is the CBR125R and costs $3,500, not $7000. It appears that if you want your kid to get into Junior Road racing, you must buy either the Metrakit or the CBR150R. I would have thought it made more sense to use a current model available in Australia at half the price of an imported model from Thailand?
It makes me wonder if we are ever going to have freedom of choice of machine in kid's racing?
I wonder who dreams up these classes and what's the benefit in using bikes which are special and not easily obtained locally? At last night's club meeting, a parent pointed out that the entry fees for last Sunday at Broadford were $180. If the numbers aren't there I believe the fees have to be that high! Why aren't the numbers there? - not difficult to answer!
|
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 10:21:48 PM
|
Alan C - Mate, do yourself a favour, go and purchase the current issue of AMCN, turn to page 128, and wonder at the spectacle of no less than 14 Junior road-racers all going hammer and tongs at Round 4 of the AMCN MRRDA Junior Road Race Development Series. This particular round was run by St George M/C Club, and held at Wakefield Park. This event was held in conjunction with the MRRDA 250cc class, 125cc and 250cc GP classes (ie the very classses that the jnrs will graduate to), and the 400cc A,B,C and D grade champs.
I don't know what is happening in Victoria as far as Junior racing goes, but up in NSW, they are doing *exactly* the type of racing that you are talking about....
|
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
