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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 1:29:41 PM
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The Historic management Committee has been approached with an the idea of identifying Methanol using machines by way of a sticker on the side number plates.
The Flaggies have presented the idea primarily because of the different fire characteristics and the fact it burns with no visible flames.
Please comment.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2008 : 10:08:18 AM
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John, this idea has my 100% support. Methanol on fire is nasty, I've seen people leaping around for no apparent reason.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 3:27:40 PM
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John, although we don't run Methanol in our outfit at the moment, I support the proposal to have some sort of alert placed on bikes using it.
As is known, the difficulty is that there is no visible flame when this substance ignites.
I would hope that there won't be any cost to those that use the substance, that is, for an identifying symbol? Costs are up there enough as it is.
Perhaps the controlling body might see fit to "donate" some stickers?
Cheers, peen0_0 (Tony)
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 3:38:42 PM
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The idea came from the Flaggies.
There has been no discussion with MA or MV at this stage, other than what about the idea.
It is my guess they would cost, because somebody has to print them and since Historics are one of the few groups using the methanol I cannot see the Road race, Moto Cross etc being happy to cover the costs. As I have often said, costs for racing are always more than we think, there is no stone tablet that says Racing is a budget activity. If you find it please show it to me!
But a group lot would be more economical. At th end of the day the plan needs to get the ok from riders generally and then through the commissions to the national Committee for final approval.
It is just the type of safety / calming issue that I probally would get some made for my own machine immeadiatley because I am worried about methanol. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 15 Feb 2008 4:30:28 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 4:08:02 PM
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Could be as simple as a letter M on the numberplate which could be spray painted on or a self adhesive letter which should be available from your local artist supply shop.
Also it might be a good idea to encourage the alcoholics to group together in the garages and ensure that they have water buckets handy.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 4:14:47 PM
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Surely MV can afford to print a sheet of a couple of hundred red "M" letters, under the "duty of care" banner? Maybe around 60x60mm? All bikes would be picked up fairly quickly if they were made available/compulsorily attached at scrutineering?
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Try Everything |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 7:29:04 PM
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Why not ask the company who sells the product to you to supply safety stickers. They are picking up a huge margin on the way through and should help with end user safety at all levels.
If anybody has a duty of care it must be the supplier of the juice!
With each sticker they could also supply easy contact details for product depots in each state.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 09:34:03 AM
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I want to argue from a different perspective.
Why cant thsoe who use the Methanol take their resposibility of Duty and Care and provide the stickers themselves?
Mind you the sponors from suppliers is worth a request.
CSR seem to be the manuafacturers I sghall follow them up. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 09:40:46 AM
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| Find out a price John and I may be able to chip in for up to a thousand (1000) stickers. They can not be that expensive surely? If they work out the design, I will get pricing and see what I can do. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 10:27:16 AM
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Apparently the car crowd already use a round sticker with the letter "A" on it. It may be an international symbol. Does anybody know anything about this ?
Thanks |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 5:49:58 PM
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The letter A [for alcohol] is an international symbol for the type of fuel in question.
The Aus rule book for CAMS states that the letter A in white on a red circle of approx 115mm dia. with a white border.
This symbol must be placed adjacent to the racing number on each side of the vehicle and at the fuel filler cap. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 6:15:01 PM
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| I guess a sign that big on motorcycles would be a problem, but there may be an alternative size we can create. Any suggestions? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 6:18:37 PM
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What about something like this:
10.41 KB |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 9:17:44 PM
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Great work David - 1000 seems a good amount - knock the corners off as the EC requirement is a circle.
CSR were very hesitant when I spoke with them this morning as they knew that some people added all sorts of things like acetone, 265 laq thinners,528 winter reducer,kiwi shoe polish, 566 acrylic thinners to methanol which meant the product they sold was nothing like what went into the bikes. [all of that must make your eyes water when following]
CSR withdrew the free stickers because of the additives to their brew. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 06:09:58 AM
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So if I get 1000 of these made up, and send them off to the the tracks, does some one want to supply who I send them to and how many to each? (Great way to promote the clubs)
10.91 KB |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 08:51:26 AM
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David, if you are serious about this I would suggest that you give Peter Brown a call.
MrB 9335 2166. As a car racing printer I'm sure Peter would do his best for you. Use my name if you wish.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 09:30:12 AM
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This is screeming along faster than I thought possible.
I have spoken with MV who are happy that something may happen. But they have asked if we can hold until they cover a few points about sizing, final design and to check if MA are not going to suggest something slightly different.
I guess at the end of the day we may cretae our own stickers if the wheels slow things too much. But if it does not take too long I suggest we wait until we find our design is ok and save some money.
I have made a few enquiries about size and 30 - 40mm seems acceptable. Dave would the title be observed in something that size.
I am keen to have them anyway, but if we can wait a short time lets see what happens. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 19 Feb 2008 09:39:29 AM |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 10:44:35 AM
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If we can get an answer reasonably quickly, that would be fantastic.
I would also like to know, do you want the stickers hard to take off or easy to peel off? There are different types of glue and we need to get that right as well. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 1:47:20 PM
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I have had a call suggesting we really need to think carefully about this issue.
Firstly if we use the correct extinguishers they work on petrol and methanol and most do.
The use of water may cause other problems, electrical or spreading of petrol fires.
The original idea was to help draw attension to the fact a methonal fire may exist on a bike, since methanol fires are not visible until some cabling or rubber lets go some smoke. Some even suggested proper training of flaggies would over come the issue, but since we sometimes get flaggies at short notice it may be another issue.
It could at this stage that we now check what sort of equipment is being used or supplied at tracks to deal with fire.
Personally I am still happy to identify my use of methanol, but perhaps its best if we look at the whole situation at the same time.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 8:07:06 PM
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Extinguishing media for Methanol:
Use water fog [or if unavailable fine water spray], dry chemical, carbon dioxide or alcohol stable foam.
Hazchem code: 2WE
If anyone wants the full eight pages of the Material Safety Data Sheets send a pm - |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 04:20:13 AM
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| have the flagie's had Any input to this subject yet??it be nice to know their views to what would be a help to them!!I have seen a couple of Menthol fires es you dont know its on untill u feel the heat, i would think any form of warning was a good thing for the safty of ALL riders and flagies!! |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 7:19:40 PM
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| The flaggies asked for it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 10:01:43 AM
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| John, I think this is an axcellent idea and should be persued without delay. I would suggest that David's sign be sent to M.V. and M.A. stating that this is what we want to implement. Otherwise I can see it getting lost in the indecision factory and never happening. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 10:30:49 AM
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| work is happening in the background John.Do not fret, something will most likely come out of the chat. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 11:40:45 AM
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Hi All,
I agree John, this should be approached in a considered way. I would suggest that for this to work, and in fact be valid, it should become a "standard", endorsed by MA, and approved by standards australia. As we are aware, there are signing standards for all manner or things, with hazards having very strict guidelines. MA should take the lead on this issue and refer the suggestions to standards australia to ensure it meets their approval for public use.
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Try Everything |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 09:13:14 AM
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This started off as something simple. A way to advise that a machine has alcohol fuel and therefore could be burning without visible flames. We have the Victorian Historic Championship coming up in a few weeks and it would be nice if we offered the flaggies what they asked for. They are the ones who have to deal with any nasty situation and they deserve all the help we can give them.
Any warning is better than no warning.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 12:49:10 PM
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This is what I was I was thinking, but if it makes it easy, I will get say 500 smaller stickers (of 75mm round) made as a temporary measure until MA, MV and Standards Aust sign off (if it is worth going down that path) on the final design as a temporary safty messure to atleast identify who is using Methanol..quote:
Originally posted by john feakes
This started off as something simple. A way to advise that a machine has alcohol fuel and therefore could be burning without visible flames. We have the Victorian Historic Championship coming up in a few weeks and it would be nice if we offered the flaggies what they asked for. They are the ones who have to deal with any nasty situation and they deserve all the help we can give them.
Any warning is better than no warning.
Cheers, John
Once the final design is decided upon, You must be logged in to see this link. will then pay for a 1000 of the stickers to be produced.
What do you say to the interim stickers until the final design has been decided?
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 1:27:58 PM
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Ok lets go ahead.
The Clerk of Course at the Vic Titles is prepared to explain what they are, why the flaggies asked for them and that they are available for those who want to use them. The process of woking through MA will take about another 9 months and I feel comfortable about the interim idea. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 24 Feb 2008 11:24:59 AM |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2008 : 09:51:49 AM
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As an addition to the above the car people in WA also make everyone using methanol to declare its use and then provide a list to all that would need it. I agree its not much use in the heat of the moment for say a flaggy but it is something else that could be considered.
I personally favour stickers and think it is a very good idea that should be pursued.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 09:38:23 AM
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I have had a chat with MV, they have asked if we consider not doing anything until the matter is dealt with. They are concerned we may set a pattern of creating rules without due process, which has been an issue with other disciplines.
I was advised they may not be permitted.
Whilst the use of them is voluntarily there is an issue of having them on actual number plate area.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 25 Feb 2008 09:51:13 AM |
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