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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 11:25:13 AM
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Glen 20 made this statement
"The race classes need to be set to try and bring out the older bikes like the ones that turn up to the old farts meetings/ There are still bike s liuke the old jeff curley triumph and dug gorrie's rockert three which never come out to play because of the way the race classes have been for yonks. The stupid rules and race classes have allowede certain bikes to dominate, and kill off the opposition.'
So I ask what can be done differently?
There are about 1500 log booked bikes out there, where do they race and why dont they race?
Comments please.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 03 Aug 2009 1:22:25 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 12:03:24 PM
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If we had a register of bikes we would know who to contact to find out.
M.A.has the information but due to privacy law is (I'm told) not allowed to divulge the information.
We therefore need to persuade M.A. to conduct the survey for us.
Will they see this as a good investment?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 8:22:44 PM
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Do CLUBS have the same "Privacy" issue?
A canvass of clubs running events could be an easy way of getting information out to the 1500 or so Logged bike owners???
Then again which Era of owners are the TARGET? How many Logged bikes are there then?
What is MA doing for us if they are hampering interested, like minded enthusiasts canvassing ideas amongst each other for the betterment and future of our sport? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 9:49:57 PM
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yes they dio.
The issue I think is not knowing who has bikes, but how to make meetings attractive to attend.
The owners of the machines know about log books, they read or find out about events and many choose to say nothing and stay at home.
MA has agreed to include an Historic section in their newsletter, we need to supply copy. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 9:53:23 PM
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from Glen 20
'Jon, Mr Feakes has put up a good idea about running in capacity classes instead of periods. It's worth a try, but you don't have to jump in off the deep end. A progressive approach might achieve a better result'
MA thus far is insisting we stick to the current system, but if we changed how would it work? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 12:06:38 AM
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Log books are another way to apply providence for something that maybe is not 100% correct.
Many examples exist throughout the historic car world and many from motorcycling are keen to take advantage of the gaps in history and can achieve huge wealth in selling something that is really a fake. |
Edited by - Patrick on 04 Aug 2009 12:10:02 AM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 08:02:21 AM
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| There needs to be classes which don't rely on logbooks. The logbooks have got nothing to do with the racing,log books are not a bad idea, they help determine whether a bike is genuine, but that is not what Australian historic racing has ever been about.They are about selling your bike and not swindling anyone. Obviously hot rods should be deterred, but the outrageous ones are easily spotted. The trouble is the log book is just one more hurdle to anyone wanting to race. In fact this impost stopped one guy from racing a bike that was quite OK. It was a 750 triumph in a hyde harrier frame owned by Al Landers. It should of got into period 5, but got knocked back. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 08:09:02 AM
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| Isn't the seniors weekend being held at Broady on 22 August? Perhaps someone could give the old farts question sheet and ask them what they need to get them to turn up to ordinary historic meetings. Perhaps we need a register of old farts? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 08:16:31 AM
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'So I ask what can be done differently?
There are about 1500 log booked bikes out there, where do they race and why dont they race?'
The 750s in period 4 race against 1100cc Trex honda copies which should race in unlimited period 5. That's the sort of thing what keeps some guys away. Not rocket science and you know it! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 08:31:03 AM
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We need to reduce the cost of competing. There must be many who simply can't afford to compete when it means depriving the family to persue a selfish hobby.
Dirt bikes are so popular because dad and the kids can ride them for virtually nothing.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 09:21:55 AM
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I could not agree more with John's last comment but trust that the HMRAV is already making the meets as affordable as possible. Balancing life and bikes is not easy, particularly for those needing to concentrate on setting themselves up.
From my perspective, reducing cost is a fundamental way to increase participation.
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Try Everything |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 10:33:13 AM
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| Keith Campbell is right about asking what MA does for historic racing. I wonder why we never see Ross Martin or any copmmissioner ever comment on this forum? Perhaps Keith should try to become elected as a historic commissioner? Then we'd have a real racer speak for us. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 10:54:19 AM
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We can stand around and point fingers and wait for somebody else to do something, or we can be proactive and do it ourselves.
I am not an apologist for MA, but they have
Road race
Moto X
Speedway
Dirt track
Enduro
Classic moto X
Quads
etc to manage, it could be we cant expect much from them at all.
The reason Ross and the commissioners dont come on is because they dont believe they can do any good compared with their own channels. They have protocols to follow.
In fact they do have press releases here.
But I spoke to Ross Martin during writing this and he reminded me to say, get any request in writing to MA and they will look at it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 11:42:05 AM
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There are many things that we can do for ourselves.
We need to promote events in places where we don't normally promote. Most people would have no idea of what happens and probably less idea of where and when it happens. To this end I have just invited one of the ABC Classic FM presenters to come to the Southern Classic. Nothing may come of it, but I thought it worth a try.
We need to get our message out to the public so we need help in doing it. We could target journos and tv presenters and send out invitations.
We have maybe a hundred people reading this site, millions reading newspapers and watching tv.
On the subject of cost of competing, the more we can get the lower the cost becomes so the more we are likely to get. Somehow we have to break the cost spiral.
I have thoughts on how to do this but don't know if anyone will see things as I do.
Any bright ideas out there?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 12:18:41 PM
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I have just noticed that on the MV calendar it still lists a senior club licence as being the minimum requirement for a practice day.
I raised this issue some time ago but nothing has changed. I wii raise it again.
It seems ridiculous that one can ride at a race meeting on a one event licence but require an annual licence to ride at a practice day.
A one day recreational licence should suffice.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 6:35:39 PM
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| I think single event licences are OK for MX practice days, come in a book of 30. Seems strage that a different rule applies to histrionics |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 7:12:57 PM
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The reason MA do not get on here, is because they put their foot in it to many times. I had promises from David White to get on and post comments, but when I started having a go at him for the "broken" promises he made, he found it better not to get on here, even though I know that MA view comments on a daily basis during the week.quote:
Originally posted by glen20
Keith Campbell is right about asking what MA does for historic racing. I wonder why we never see Ross Martin or any copmmissioner ever comment on this forum? Perhaps Keith should try to become elected as a historic commissioner? Then we'd have a real racer speak for us.
I have always had an open invite for MA to comment on here, but they can not even when they had someone logging in as another user, but when found out, they all of a sudden stopped posting.
The invite is for MA to be open and comment, and what better media than via free information sharing such as this sites forum.
I even offered to sell the site to them and they tried to get their own forum off the ground, but that doesn't seem to get much traffic.
I use this site to promote Class/Post Classic and Historic racing in Australia to hopefully boost numbers at the track, and feel as though this site has got a few extras out there on the tracks, or even going to watch racing.   |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 10:23:36 PM
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Lets get away from costs, logbooks and stick to the topic.
As the Secretary I do not get calls from people saying I cannot start because of those points.
I do get calls about how to go racing, I explain get a good bank balance, come to a race meeting look around and chosse a class etc. Most start racing.
The issue is why dont existing people come out, what is missing.
PLEASE DONT STICK TO COSTS AND LOGBOOKS that is not the overall reason.
Ther other issue is attracting new boys as we have with the sidecar numbers.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 09:08:03 AM
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Perhaps many just grow up and move on.
Whether you like it or not cost must be a major deterrent to many.
Perhaps, at the Southern Classic, we could mount a display of bikes and list what has been done, by whom, and what the bike has cost to build.
Perhaps we should consider employing a marketing person to give us new ideas on marketing ourselves.
Possibly, if we can grow the sport, the entrants will be drawn back in.
We need to get a message out to the public.
We spend too much time mumbling behind closed doors.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 2:15:21 PM
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I too think cost is an issue, it is just not cheap to go racing a top flight older bike in any class and given the current economic situation I think a lot of people are thinking they should pay off the debt rather than getting into more.
There are other issues as well:-
People are working more, to pay off the debt, they are time poor as a result.
There are fewer and fewer people who understand how old bikes work and the skills are disappearing to fix things as opposed to simply replacing them. I have even been approached at a track day by some young blokes who were wondering what I was working on whilst I was holding my trusty 29mm Miks. I have to explain that they were carbies. The skills are simply not being passed on and younger people are impatient, they want to be able to bolt on power and handling - not coax it out by developing a very broad range of engineering skills.
In general it is a different style of riding and the bikes are no where near as forgiving as modern bikes in terms of handling. Again patience is required to develop the skills.
Maybe we need to face it, this is an older person's sport - then again they said that about lawn bowls until recently.
One approach to all this might be the development of teams with younger riders at the helm. I know all all of us think we are Agostini (who??? says the young rider)but reality is we ain't, OK not all of as are. Perhaps we could, through a team based approach, develop some younger people as riders as a first step and the older people provide the skills to run the bikes, teaching by experience all the way through. I am sure there are people out there who own the bikes but don't ride them because they say they can't due to age. I am also sure the same people might be happy to be part of this approach if it could be facilitated and it continue to show off their pride and joy.
Just an idea |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 2:32:21 PM
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| I heard an old fart say that the hardest thing about racing is to keep the urge going. When older guys see the P4/P5 unlimited combined as a really exciting race, they just have to be there . Same thing when HMRAV run a full grid of seventies and sixties two strokes at broady, it's really exciting and it creates enthusiasm. All it takes is a bit of imagination, and John Freake's ideas have what it takes. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 11:18:08 PM
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That idera of helping young ones is worth while.
I would be happy to help. Currently I am helping somebody with a sidecar, it should have taken 4 months to get going, its been 18 months, what with parties, boose, and holidays, I had to chat to his parents about commitment and I am still not sure they will ever get to the track.
So my experince with the Gen Y is bad at the moment. But we have the space and the skills if somebody wants it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 1:48:33 PM
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Oldkwak has some very valid points, and several that I, as a relatively new and "young" rider and bike builder, have raised on this site many moons ago. This was not taken up at the time, and I am pleased there may be renewed interest. I floated the idea of a mentoring program, to be lead by a key group such as HMRAV, as a way to encourage, equip and skill new participants. I have always seen this as the key, and perhaps the only way to secure the future of historic racing.
In my view there are two key points to consider:
1. Cost - machinery, skill and actual race meets. These are vastly different and as most of you will know, although the race meets can cost considerable sums, they are perhaps given more focus in this issue than deserved. The primary cost to a new participant is machinery. This is of course compounded as time goes on through its very nature of being historic. In line with the, access to bikes and parts is becoming more expensive each year. Those who own useable bikes or have access to resources and parts rightly value them highly. Through price, this in many ways actually prevents the ongoing access to the parts and bikes we need to keep our recreation alive. There is not much that can be done about the cost of machinery as I cannot see anyone reducing the value of their machines to sell to someone they don’t know! However, this barrier may be offset to come degree through the provision of skill in building a bike and the encouragement to actually use it. This can only come from active participation in mentoring from those with the means to do so.
2. Lack of active mentoring/encouragement by clubs. As mentioned above, the mentoring idea is not new. I suggest a program that includes matching a new club member to an experienced mentor would have real benefits - both to ensure new people are on the right track and to provide a tangible means for our elders to continue to contribute to the health of our recreation - and importantly to pass on vital knowledge and history of the machines we love. This mentoring relationship could be implemented in a number of ways e.g. one to one or one to many relationships, or through mentoring nights on various topics.
I have been fortunate to make a few good friends through my love of old racing machines, they provide guidance and encouragement worth its weight in gold. This in turn provides me the motivation to continue to build and explore new machine opportunities. These are never immediately available ($$$ again), and I am not always able to race, but I know I will get there in time.
Mentoring is the key.
I am happy to assist my club, HMRAV, in the development of a discussion paper for such a program. This paper could be circulated to members for comment to gauge interest and the likely success.
John, please contact me should you wish to take me up on this offer.
Apologies for the long post, this has been of concern to me for some years. Maybe now is the time to make it all happen.
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Try Everything |
Edited by - Ben on 07 Aug 2009 1:52:45 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 2:17:20 PM
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ben thanks. No worthwhile post is too long.
I like the mentoring idea and lets work on it. I actually am doing it with a sidecar team and it is painful, with parties, boose and girlfriends in the way. They have been utterly unreliable in turning up to help themselves. But it may be different with somebody else.
Lets work on it.
I had a call from Dennis in Yackandanda today who scoffed at the expence issue as a total point. He suggests people go and try car racing before they talk. Entry fees $6-800 an event, seatbelts need to be replaced regularly, licence $600.
My personal view is that we all know it costs, we either choose to spend it or not. many of the ride day blokes are using $15- 20,000 machines.
Historic racers can spend between $3000 and $70,000.
If you stuck with something standard for a while the cost of repair would be minimal.
But lets stick to mentoring and encouragement.
I am in Oakleigh and can offer help if required, but consistancy of attendance is required. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 Aug 2009 8:08:55 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 7:01:49 PM
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| your right, the cost of racing is only a minor issue. What gets blokes back racing is the competition that is offered. We want to race! not parade around while we get blasted to the weeds by bikes really different from our own. |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 7:15:00 PM
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If you can get all the above members to post over four days I think that you have found the answer to your question.
I do not think that I have seen this trick on any forum ever - well done - make sure you don't get a passed on member posting though!!
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 07:48:39 AM
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| Nothing 'trick' about it Patrick. It's something every historic racer is interested in. There are issues which have never been addressed. That is shown by the bikes that we know exist and never turn up to meetings. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 09:08:22 AM
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I don't see log books as one more hurdle to race. There are the following steps to be taken
Find out about Historic racing
Decide to get involved
think about a machine
Tell wife
Buy new lounge suite to soften her up
Keep looking for machine
Deal with everybody who says you are mad
Deal with the Responsible person guilt trips thrown at you
Get a bike
Join a club
Go to a track day
Have second thoughts
Repaint second bedroom to appease wife
Apply for a log book
Fix bike to suit
apply for a licence
Get new address for bike related mail so the truth is never revealed about costs
Find explanation about why you need the trailer
Get a bike trailer,
Take wife out to expensive evening to appease her
Spend next week explaining how you could afford expensive evening
Hunt for supp regs
etc
The big issue is how do we improve the strike rate for the first and second points. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 08 Aug 2009 09:39:23 AM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 4:46:41 PM
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| get divorce and sell kids to the arabs |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 1:37:04 PM
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I find it strange that there are those who scoff at the idea of cost being a prohibitive factor.
It may not be for you, but for many it is.
Such scoffing is the prerogative of the poor little rich kid. Somewhat akin to "let them eat cake".
I like the idea of mentoring.
It, perhaps, should be part of a questionnaire aimed at the spectators at the Southern Classic.
If we could prepare such a questionnaire we could hand them out at the gate and perhaps have a collection box outside the toilets.
How about a back up display of bikes each with a breakdown of costs to show people what things actually cost?
Can we put together a panel of "brains" who would be prepared to act as mentors, bearing in mind that it would undoubtedly mean silly questions at awkward times?
A worthwhile effort me thinks.
Keep kicking the ideas around and hopefully we will come up with a master plan.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 1:50:58 PM
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John, I am not scoffing at the costs. I just dont belive we get any worthwhile discussion about other issues because people talk about the cost that stops further issues coing up. As has happenned here anyway.
With regard to giving information to spectators we could do something in the program and the web site also. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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