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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 09:59:23 AM
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NOTE;
Personal opinion coming up here, all correspindance can be sent to myself not the club, life is hard enough as it is.
There seems to be a thought by some that 2 stroke machines are prejudiced against.
It is something that comes up from Alan and Glen 20 from time to time.
The way I see it nothing that makes so much vibration inside ones head shouuld exist. All such machines MUST be predudiced against.
How anybody can say that a 2 stroke is a real racing bike has a lot to defend. Just because they go faster than anything else is another reason for banning them, after all where is the charisma from a shrill squaaaaak thringgggggg compared with a the thump, thrump, bang of a lovely 4 stroke machine.
It is a matter of Culture as well, the same as the fact the electric guitars completely wrecked the concept of music compared with a Cello, Violin or Double bass, a French horn etc. 2 strokes have created their own death wish by being uncultured.
My own sidecar sounds like a powerful rocket or a massed group of 3000hp steam locomotives in other words BEAUTIFUL.
A 2 stroke sounds like a million hacksaw blades being scraped down a black board.
2 strokes have amply demonstrated why they cannot be around they have "shat" in their own nest. If they ever develop Culture lets look then.
Power to the 4 stroke, good riddance to the 2 stroke.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 08 Dec 2009 10:23:58 AM |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 4:40:49 PM
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John,
I don't totally disagree with all of that. Some two strokes make the most awful noise and worst of all they are way too fast.
Much as i prefer the sound a 4 stroke, my TZs are much sweeter bikes to ride and our old RS125 is way faster than any of our 4 strokes.
The real issue to me with two strokes is that I can get a truck load more HP out of one than I can get out of a wailing Honda. Case in point, the fast 250 P4 Suzukis in the UK make about 55 HP and have six speeds.
A 250 Bultaco can make 42(ish)HP and I don't know any 4 strokes of the era in that class.
That's why I'm a proponent of breaking the capacity/period nexus and replacing it with something that better matches performance. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 5:37:46 PM
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We got it wrong at the beginning!
A 2 stroke fires every revolution, a 4 stroke every 2nd revolution therefore a 2 stroke really has twice the useful capacity of a 4 stroke.
Before the advent of expansion chambers the 2 stroke squirted most of the incoming fuel mixture out through the exhaust port making a lot of noise but not much power.
Nobody took them seriously until it was too late.
Now we have to live with them.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2009 : 9:02:09 PM
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| Now, now lads. You can't ignore the fabulous hair-raising wail of the unsilenced Suzuki and Kawasaki triples of the early seventies, and even when I'm tucked away down the front at Phillip Island and a metho-gobbling TR3 comes by with 25 mph to spare, I still raise a grin. Then at the Southern Classic this year I got into a couple of knuckleups with the metho-snorting 350 KTM of Mark Lester, man when that thing's ports cleared up it would just disappear with a big two-stroke single snarl, ripper ! Nah, you gotta love 'em, and anyone who dumps on 'em is usually just jealous.... |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2009 : 08:18:41 AM
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Of course we love them and yes we're probably jealous too.
Sadly the only way 4 strokes can look good is by having races where 2 strokes are banned.
The bloody things are just too good. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2009 : 11:20:07 AM
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GD66, as a now deaf bloke who raced a 2 stroke sidecar for years I reckon I am qualified to denounce them as uncultered filth or upstarts. Sure it is annoying they are so fast and win, but I agree its about the culture of motorcycling and that means that terrible noiuse should be bannished only to be retained on video. Who could or should stand that banshee!
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Edited by - oldonk on 09 Dec 2009 11:20:47 AM |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2009 : 6:38:38 PM
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| Firstly thanks for your input , John D , John F , CB 72 and even Glen 20 . Seems that you have all lightened up a bit, with humour ! But it remains a fact to me that your a bunch of politicians , who know whats good for everyone ! So now you want an E.T.S. [ eliminate two strokes ] perhaps we can send them cheaply to China to share the technology ? P.S i will post some serious , positive idea's after iv'e stopped laughing , |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2009 : 9:27:38 PM
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| Well, I wish I had one in the garage....a TZ750 to be precise. Only thing I'd prefer would be good old Colin Will's Corish Vincent...anyone know what happened at the Bonhams auction last weekend ? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 09:08:16 AM
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But it remains a fact to me that your a bunch of politicians , who know whats good for everyone !
Thanks Beezerman it is not often anybody recoginses our skill, knowledge and drive to get things done.
The reason we do it is because nobody else is prepared to stand publicly and do a job.
Many are happy to cry over a beer about how nobody listens to then, yet they never write a single word, nor make a single phone call to discuss anything.
Under the influence of alcohol they may make a few statements, but nothing else.
This site and others work to draw opinions and discussion and eben then few make a comment.
So the reason we are the politicians etc is because we have to guess what people feel is good and take a chnace that it will work.
In my experinec there are plenty of people ready to criticise but few prepared to offer an idea.
Your complement is welcomed. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 10:03:14 AM
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Thank you for recognizing that I do indeed know what is best for you.. 
OK so I have some opinions and ideas, but as John alluded to, sometimes it's better to thrown an idea up and let people take pot shots at it. It's easier to critique an idea that's out in the open than to try to get it perfect in one small brain.
Sometimes it's hard to work through all the conflicting issues and then someone makes a statement and as you react and respond, sometimes that process helps to clear your own thoughts.
Of course taking a dump may have the same through clearing properties too. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 10:28:47 AM
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I don't have a problem with two strokes, they're good things. I built a fast T250 Suzuki which Ian Whitehead use to win 23 races and 5 championships. It was so much faster than my 500cc Triumph it was ridiculous, but I couldn't get enthused about it. It never had the same feel as a good fourstroke. In the mid sixties the advent of the two strokes changed road racing forever, not necessarily for the better. I'm convinced that twostrokes should never race against fourstrokes in historic races, but that is the reality of the 'period' concept. Here is a shot of my latest project which is almost complete:
You must be logged in to see this link. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 10:37:24 AM
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| In another post John Daley mentioned the possibility of Formula 750 TT races for fourstrokes being held at HMRAV meetings. How about also running a Formula 750 GP race for twostrokes and multis up to 750cc? The Period 4 bikes run alky which would even up the class. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 11:25:17 AM
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As has already been said, yes, we are politicians I suppose.
If we were not, there would be no race meetings to attend.
Churchill said something along the lines of "never, in the history of motorcycle racing, was so much owed by so many to so few".
It is sad that it is always the same few that have to organise everything for the majority.
I have witnessed two instances of burnout in recent months and the sport will be poorer for it.
I have also witnessed first hand the apathy that prevails in our sport.
It is depressing. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 5:47:49 PM
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| Every now and then I come to realise I have to start thinking differently. I don't believe I'll ever get a ride with my Norton where it's up with the front bunch in any race. So I know I have to cultivate the urge a bit more and finish the two stroke. It should be a bit of fun. If you can't beat them, join them! |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 6:36:53 PM
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| Dear Johns , CB72 and welcome back Glen 20 . There is no doubt that your collective hearts work tirelessly to promote classic racing and organize events , but that doesn't mean your right all the time . Great to bring new idea's and discussions about things , nothing wrong with that . The problem is with this forum is that only a small number of people have a opinion , you may call it apathy , but perhaps the majority of racers and interested party's may not have internet or aren't computer savvy . I believe the current rules are pretty right , but perhaps a bit of tweaking is in order . Therefore I propose at the Vic Champs we have a forum in the schoolroom . Let those who ride decide . Break it up into sessions , eg juniors , [all 125 250's] seniors and unlimited and even sidecars. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 7:53:55 PM
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GD, the Corish Vincent went for $70,000 ($79,100 including commission)
I don't know who bought it. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 8:21:44 PM
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Dear bezerman GL, we know we're not right all the time.
We can only come up with suggestions and put them out for people to consider.
I circulated the proposal for racing by capacity at the Southern Classic.
Out of 200 odd competitors only 5 responded. Two of them said they didn't have an opinion to express and three were in favour of change.
Lack of communication is one of the major problems our sport suffers from.
I will endeavour to circulate the questionnaire to all H.M.R.A.V. members via the newsletter to see if we can get a better response that way.
A forum in the school room may work, but, in fairness, people should have time to think about proposals for change before they form an opinion.
Unfortunately the alternative to having an opinion is to have someone else's opinion thrust on you.
The great thing is that we've got something started, let's keep talking. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2009 : 8:24:08 PM
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| Well, let's just hope it's gone to someone who has the same degree of dignity and respect with which Colin used to field the Beast. Debbo is a major component in the history of Aussie bike racing, and so's the Corish Vinnie. I always admired the fact that Colin said he was the test pilot, and that gave him enough of a buzz, but he left the racing to the experts : at that time, Clive Harrop was the incumbent pilot. Colin's biggest bugbear was the Noise Police, but he'd laughingly cop it sweet when admonished for the fruity roar of the big v-twin. The fact that he continued to present it bearing Debbo's #87 meant a lot to me, and no doubt to others of a similar mind, and with Colin's sad loss it's no surprise that it had to move on : let's just hope we get to see it grace our race tracks again. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2009 : 08:22:21 AM
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We can only hope.
Glenn, you have a lot of historical knowledge stored away in your head.
Have you put it in writing?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2009 : 09:15:48 AM
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| I watched Eric Debenham race at Bathurst against the new Yamaha two strokes in about 1965. I saw the front end of the Vincent step out as he approached Hell Corner, and he neatly recovered it, he came in about fourth against the A Graders in the Unlimited. I met him a few years back, and I was surprised how young he is. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2009 : 09:24:02 AM
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'Lack of communication is one of the major problems our sport suffers from.'
It's the very reason this web site exists! I had conversations with Allan Greening very early on, and thankfully David stepped up and made it happen.
There is only one problem with this means of communication, the guys feel exposed, and not so many are prepared to speak up. For myself, I feel I'm getting too old, and these days if I've got an opinion I state it! (You're too long pushing up daisies!) I strongly believe historic racing hasn't yet reached anything like its full potential, and I'd love to see it become bigger than Ben Hur! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2009 : 09:43:06 AM
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Alan, I'm with you.
I rang up Le Pine to see if they had a waiting room.
They probably thought I was mad.
Say it today for there may not be a tomorrow.
I am sure the best is yet to come, tomorrow would be nice.
Now I need to go to buy a new 4 stroke battery.
Bugger the 2 strokes! |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 09:52:31 AM
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Frankly if people are afraid to stand up and put as case for an alternative viewpoiunt, how the hell am I as a Secretary meant to find out anything.
That is a sloppy reason, I am not aware of anybody getting a beating, spiked drinks or slashed tyres for having an alternative view.
At times we have discused at the committee that fact that silence must mean we are doing it pretty much ok, because when MA frigged around with the champs at Winton there was a huge outcry.
So the masses seem to shout out if they are unhappy.
But I am aware there are improvements we can make its just that the ideas in my brain are coming slowly now.
So please dont hide behind a fear of something for floating an idea.
Anyway I stiil reckon 2 strokes suck!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 12 Dec 2009 12:04:58 PM |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 9:12:06 PM
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| Yes , two strokes suck , faster and stronger ! Wish my girlfriend was a two stroke ! |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 9:29:02 PM
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Why can't we have 2 stroke only races?
Ban those noisy, complicated, oil leaking, 4 stroke things - especially the ones with only three wheels. No logic in 3 wheels.
If 2 strokes & 2 wheels aren't good enough go electric! 
Electric wheel chairs....? |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 11:23:11 PM
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| A two stroke and a fourstroke walk into a bar "were starving and would like to have a drink ! " The barman said " two stroke we have the finest menu and best liquer in town " Fourstroke we have sour krout and a pint of bitters " |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2009 : 08:25:41 AM
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At times we have discused at the committee that fact that silence must mean we are doing it pretty much ok, because when MA frigged around with the champs at Winton there was a huge outcry.
MA decide where the championships are to be held each year, John. And you and I both know why they were offered to Winton in 2003. There's a simple lesson in it for you - if you're the leader of the pack, don't cop any sh1t from the members! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 3:36:41 PM
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Why can't we have 2 stroke only races?
Good idea, Bernie. Twostrokes and multis (GP bikes) were the more modern technology which displced the old aircooled singles and twins (TT bikes). We should make the distinction and not race the two groups together. In any 'period race' a 'GP bike' should cr@p on a 'TT bike' of the same capacity, all other things being equal. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 3:44:49 PM
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Put a case in writing with all the detail fo the proposal and I will submitt it.
But it MUST be complete, not have half the details so it reads as a complete document without wny prior or background knowledge being require. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 7:59:59 PM
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Can't say fairer than that, kids. Gotta say, even though I'm happy to race under existing class guidelines, that the constant chirping has been rewarded with plenty of opportunity throughout then year to leg things along. John Feakes' survey I believe was a well-intentioned and good idea, but as both Johns have pointed out, the ensuing silence would indicate a paucity of displeasure. However, between three of you the AHRMA and WERA rules have been trotted out for analysis, result being more silence. However, this latest proposal to run separate two-stroke and four-stroke events has been well received, so if you're fair dinkum about it, do a quick lobby (you know, like I suggested for the Southern Classic !) and get it in writing.
I believe it would help get it across the line if a mass of HMRAV members jumped on the forum and proclaimed it to be a godsend, but they really do appear to be notable in their silence....must be all happy with club life.
Too early for another poll ? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2009 : 09:28:40 AM
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Firstly, I proposal in writing has been presented. It reads well.
John Feakes wants to chew the fat with me over it and I would assume I will present it to my Committee.
I am aware of the contentment with the current method of racing, but discussion can only ensure content,ment.
I hope that at least some aspects of it may be considered.
I will put up the final propsal here and ask as many people to comment prior to going to my committee. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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