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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2009 : 07:47:05 AM
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Period Racing and Capacity Racing
From 1973 to the present motorcycle historic racing has been controlled by ‘period’ which is related to date of manufacture. This has the effect of attempting to recreate racing as it was in certain eras with the same disadvantages, which also occurred as certain bike designs became obsolete. In the middle to late sixties two strokes were in the ascendency, and multis also became common. These two forms of motorcycle placed the older style single and twin cylinder fourstrokes at a major disadvantage.
Basically I believe historic bikes should be grouped into two main types, and the two types raced separately.
Fourstroke singles and twins to be known as ‘ TT machines’
Two strokes and multis to be known as ‘GP machines’
These two groups represent the stages of development of racing motor cycles from the thirties to about 1985. TT machines were an early development, the type used in the UK, and GP machines were usually Japanese - later development.
Historically racing in Australia was always based on capacity class, and rider grading. Rider grading has become unimportant to historic racing.
The following are the capacity classes that were used at least until the mid seventies:
Ultralightweight (125cc)
Lightweight (250cc)
Junior (350cc)
Senior (500cc)
Formula 750 (750cc)
Unlimited.
If the two groups are raced in capacity classes, two times six gives twelve race classes. It should be possible to run 24 solo races and 4 sidecar races in a day meeting of 7 hours if 15 minutes is allowed for each race. This suggested ‘capacity race’ format can be run in combination with the existing ‘period race’ concept by splitting the meetings into two half sessions.
The advantage of the ‘capacity race and grouping ‘concept is that the same TYPES of machine will race each other. This situation doesn’t exist at present under ‘period racing’, as many are often separated into the various periods, and never end up in the same race.
There is a disadvantage in ‘capacity racing’ for owners of Unlimited machines. They will only get half the number of rides as owners of smaller capacity machines. However if the two concepts (period and capacity) are used on one day each of a two day race meeting, the owners of unlimited machines should be well satisfied.
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2009 : 09:08:13 AM
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Am I right in thinking that 2 stroke sidecars were banned from all but club meetings?
If this is the case it would make room for the Class C bikes. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 15 Dec 2009 09:15:25 AM |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2009 : 11:26:57 PM
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Yes Alan, we are well aware of your obsession with capacity-based, period-free classic racing, HOWEVER be aware that there is an ongoing problem with running P3 and P4 machines together, wherein a quickly-ridden P3 bike may be passed at the end of a straight by a P4 of similar capacity, only for the possibly less-enthused P4 rider to sit up and grab a fistfull of disc brakes, putting the closely-following P3 rider, with only drum brakes at his behest, in jeopardy and in danger of shunting the P4 from behind. This was a very tangible problem at the (please let's not get into it now !) Winton historic nats of 2003, and when we took it up with the authorities with a view to separating the two classes on the grid, it was denied, and so was the ensuing discussion !
This is the major fly in the ointment of your plan... for me, I'm happy to race in any format including bracket racing, handicap racing, capacity racing, night racing, I've done 'em all, and I enjoy them all.
Bottom line is, let's do whatever is required to keep new starters joining ! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2009 : 08:17:44 AM
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Since nobody seems to care what is inside a bike we must assume that what can be seen is all that matters.
With that in mind it would not be too hard to decide which similar bikes should compete against each other regardless of date of manufacture.
Racing by capacity or next larger capacity class.
4 strokes with 4 strokes, 2 strokes with 2 strokes.
Drum brakes not mixed with disc brakes.
Rigid frames not mixed with suspended frames.
I will work through the Southern Classic programme to see if such a plan is feasible. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 5:39:13 PM
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The 'TT' group would almost encompass Heritage BEARS!:
BEARS FORMULA 4 – HERITAGE (New Cut Off Date 1985 – No Tyre/Wheel Restrictions)
Motor Design - Pre 1985, including head and crankcases; Motor Manufacture can be after 1985; Frame - tubular steel; Front Forks - no USD forks; Wheels - Free; e.g. BULTACO; BMW Boxer R60 - R100 (4 valve heads may be fitted); DUCATI all Bevel drives, Pantah, TT2, 750F1; HARLEY DAVIDSON 883-1200, XR750 -1000; LAVERDA SFC 750, Jota, RGS; MOTO GUZZI Mk1-Mk5, V7, Classic;
SINGLE CYLINDER - BSA, Norton, Velocette etc;
TRIUMPH Bonneville, Trident, Thruxton;
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 5:42:13 PM
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| In the early 70s there were disc braked bikes racing against some with drum brakes. When you are racing you must always take CARE. Perhaps it's time to permit single discs in period 3 ? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 5:46:27 PM
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| GD66, both you an I know that if someone sits up and grabs a handful of disc brake causing a crash of a drum braked bike, they have changed line with the intention of crashing the other rider! |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2009 : 7:36:18 PM
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| There was a comment way back up there somewhere about a belief that two stroke sidecars are banned! As the rider of one of the few regularly racing two stroke sidecars I am wondering where that comment was heading? Can you enlighten me John? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 07:47:29 AM
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| I noticed the post above regarding that. I've never heard mention that twostroke sidecars might be banned. I believe the reason they rarely turn up at meetings is the same old problem with engine wear rates. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 09:21:00 AM
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Geoff, I think I got that wrong. Now that my memory is in gear again I think it only referred to modern sidecars, restricting them to club level competition.
I remember at the time being very annoyed for anyone who had spent up big on a Krauser only to be shafted.
Sorry if I caused confusion.
John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 3:42:26 PM
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| I thought only BMWs were shafted? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2010 : 08:41:58 AM
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Don't kid yourself Al, anyone can get shafted by the politicians.
250cc GP bikes going cheap thanks to the shafters?
They successfully shafted the 50s,80s, 350s 500s and now the 250s.
How long before they get rid of the 125s?
Give them an inch and they take a bloody mile.
Don't you worry about that, you just leave that to us, we know what's best for you. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 01 Jan 2010 08:47:14 AM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 07:55:04 AM
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| We need to promote people like Wayne Gardner and Casey Stoner in the public eye. The publicity the patch gangs get doesn't do any of us any good. While we've got the dirty bikie image, we'll always get a raw deal from the pollies. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 07:59:24 AM
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| WE need to realise that our whole system is politicised right down to local council level. We finf this out when we apply for grants to assist club development. In our area the local council officers have their own pet projects which get the money. It the lovely things like the politically correct pony clubs and netball ladies which get the funds. The motocross kids don't get a look in! It's an image problem! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 08:04:11 AM
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| I've been negfotiating with our local council Community Development Officer on grant issues. She was told that one of the big race teams wants to move to Winton. They asked for a large shed to be found for them to work out of. BIG ZERO ever happened. It wasn't seen as even being relevant to anything happening in our district! Regardless of the fact that our motorcycle club had about 80 members, and runs meetings every couple of weeks which brings out heaps of young kids to race. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:12:58 AM
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Alan, you are not wrong.
If motorcycle racing is ever going to be socially acceptable we need to start by having a good look at ourselves. We need to clean ourselves up and present a far better image than is currently the case.
We could also consider our own nominations for local councils.
I'm off to have a shave now. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 3:46:58 PM
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| My wife has threatened to divorce me if I get into politics. Our local council would drive anyone right up the wall, and althought it's been suggested, I won't be going there. There are other ways of skinning a cat. |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 10:37:45 PM
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Thanks for clarifying your comment about banning two strokes John. I was a little worried, coz I have way too much fun on my Kwaka! And with regards the other comment about reliability of two strokes, the motor that I just used to win our state titles has been racing for just over two years now without being apart. In those two years we have done 16 or 17 meetings - seems pretty reliable to me...
Geoff
Sidecar #30 |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 12:41:25 PM
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| Does your kwaka get a dose of methanol? The bore wear can be horrendous on some two strokes |
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