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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 7:42:30 PM
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| why is that every thing you have to say on this forum seems to be negitive to historic roadracing as it is today the vid is great but delivered with your usual shot at historic racing that we "DO" today seem to be your style and from what i see seems to be driveing people away from what could be a great forum to use to spread the word about our sport .keep dreaming about the old days but stop knocking us that are trying to enjoy our turn.and please dont think my reply gives your b\s any relevants at all. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 05:58:27 AM
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Hasn't 'historic racing' got something to do with history? A few years back I watched a race at an historic meeting at Broadford which contained all two strokes regardless of period. In 'history' they would have raced that way in capacity classes. It is not rocket science ! You'll note that in the video above there are two superbikes in amongst what are all GP bikes. Great that they can keep up, but that's not the point - it looks completely wrong. We need to think about what appeals to spectators, or the competitors entry fees will only ever be the means of showing a 'profit' and running economically viable meetings.
I've put videos of historic racing in the mid 70s up on youtube. In some of them there are fields comprising 90% old British four stroke singles and twins. Amongst them are two stroke bikes which completely stuff the competition, and make the races sound wrong. If we are going to have historic racing the races should at least look and sound right, even if the machines are all cheaters.
I could never understand this 'period' bullsh1t. When I raced regularly, if you rode an old bike, you accepted the handicap purely in the interests of keeping it going. These days historic racing looks like an overcooked version of Allpowers C grade in the 1970s, when we raced the old sh1t against H2 and Z1 Kawasakis and RD350s. The clip I've just put up shows what good racing used to look like. |
Edited by - conker on 20 Apr 2012 06:00:11 AM |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2012 : 12:05:46 PM
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Who cares what it looks like?
"History" is for museums.
Just get out there & race ....
preferably on a bike that makes it to the end of the meeting, upright!  |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2012 : 1:59:04 PM
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| may be historic racing is the wrong wording that was made up by someone else i presonaly could not give a stuff about history of my bike or any others i just want to be able to race and develop the bikes over time and not need a new one every year like moderns and can go and do it with like minded people and you can forget all the other b\s this is what a lot of people enjoy about this motorsport regardless of where you finish in the field.it really is about getting out there!!!! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2012 : 2:42:27 PM
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My preference would be for classic racing, divided for the four main types of machine, run in capacity classes regardless of year of manufacture exceptfor cut off date. I can see value in maintaing authenticity, but the opportunity to develop is the big thing which maintains my interest in road racing. If you want to keep and older bike running, you accept the handicap ! Running all types of bike together in periods is inequitable bullsh1t. Who is going to run a thunderbike, if they can run an alky fuelled two stroke or superbike in period 4 ? It all costs too much for that ! The four types :
GP bikes
Thunderbikes
Superbikes
Sidecars
It adds up to about 15 capacity classes - two really competitive rides per day. |
Edited by - conker on 21 Apr 2012 2:45:04 PM |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2012 : 3:43:15 PM
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| at bigger meetings each period and capacity is running for there own trophy regardless of of who else is in the race you are only racing people in your class at a local level we do the same and it all seems to work fairly well the island classic brordford aussie titles all seem to work well run like this its really about keeping bikes on the track its working our first meeting in WA had 80 pre p6 bikes and around 110 with support clases great!! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 5:15:52 PM
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I absolutely understand the points Al is making.
We do not have historic racing, we have old bike racing.
Being an old sod I have seen the best at world level when history was being made.
It didn't have "periods", it changed through evolution.
The British 4 stroke singles were eclipsed by the Italian multi 4 strokes which were eclipsed by the Japanese multi 4 strokes which were eclipsed by the 2 strokes.
This was the evolution and if we are to promote 'historic' racing we should classify bikes according to type.
Only this way will we have something resembling what actually happened.
It seems we are quite happy to race old bikes against other old bikes and pretend it has some connection to history.
What used to be a top spectator attraction has now declined into a user pays who cares forgotten sport.
I reckon it is sad. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 7:13:46 PM
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| er that would be p3 mainly 4 stroke singles and twins p4 twins and 4cyl and evolving 2 strokes p5 fast 4 strokes old bike racing yep that would be it. some historicly significant, most just old bikes getting punted around my point at the start of this is maybe a little more positive coment about the sport and less knocking of the way that the bikes from day dot till 1990 are seperated in to groups to go race so we can go out and have some fun.really whats in a name historic racing old bike racing lansdown cup goodwood or whatever the racing should be inclusive not exclusive got a bike want to have a play how can we help get in on the track thats my way of thinking ! |
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Jack21
Level 1 Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 7:32:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by vintonYour on the money vinton.
er that would be p3 mainly 4 stroke singles and twins p4 twins and 4cyl and evolving 2 strokes p5 fast 4 strokes old bike racing yep that would be it. some historicly significant, most just old bikes getting punted around my point at the start of this is maybe a little more positive coment about the sport and less knocking of the way that the bikes from day dot till 1990 are seperated in to groups to go race so we can go out and have some fun.really whats in a name historic racing old bike racing lansdown cup goodwood or whatever the racing should be inclusive not exclusive got a bike want to have a play how can we help get in on the track thats my way of thinking !
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 09:17:11 AM
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Yes boys, you are basically right.
Unfortunately the devil is in the details and a broad statement that everything is just fine the way it is will not improve anything.
The whole point is that the type of bikes racing together is of far more importance than the actual date the bikes were produced
I too seek positive comment.
Positive comment on how we can improve things and make the racing good enough to encourage spectators to pay to watch it, good enough to make tv companies want to offer live coverage. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 8:11:11 PM
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This has been lifted from the great TNF site - a post by Pat Clark
Much much closer to home, let's consider the hard work required to make a Kawasaki H1B 500cc triple perfectly stock for the Castrol 6 hour race at Amaroo Park.
The ‘Mach 3’ was fast, unreliable and drank fuel.
The race requires standard bikes only, and afterwards this bike was cleared by a very suspicious group of scrutineers.
Breaking rear spokes were fixed by building new wheels from spares, using different clearance bearings and stainless spokes.
Wobbles were controlled by replacing the rubber engine mount bushes with new ones machined from black Delrin
Engine peakiness was softened by offset boring the cylinders by 1mm to max oversize (“It seized in practice sir, we had to put new pistons in it. What do you mean by ‘DeSaxe’ sir”?) This softened the exhaust port timing and kept some fuel mixture inside the engine. The bottom of the cylinders was skimmed and thin gaskets fitted. This softened the exhaust port timing even more as well as closing the squish clearance and raising the compression ratio. The pistons were not shortened, even though the tolerances would have allowed a little to be skimmed. Pace wasn’t the aim, rideability and fuel consumption were.
Wearing through the centre exhaust pipe would cause the centre cylinder to run lean and seize, so it was acid stripped, peened at the wear point, filled with nickel bronze, filed, linished and re-chromed. When the pipes were refitted, the mounting brackets were ‘adjusted’ with a big hammer to tuck them in tighter.
The rear shocks were useless, though the stiff springs (for pillion use) were okay. This was fixed by removing the bottom bushing, drilling a small hole up into the base of the shock and the original fish oil pumped out. After a good flushing, the shocks were immersed in a bucket of Shell Tellus hydraulic oil and pumped till the bubbles stopped. The drillings were filled with silver solder and the shocks reassembled.
The largest tank in Kawasaki’s inventory was assisted with some compressed air, then had the fuel tap cut off inside to allow access to all the fuel. A small hole was drilled in the neck of the filler where it protruded into the tank to ensure the tank was fully filled. Along with the ‘adjusted’ cylinders (no porting or polishing!) and rejetting the carburettors, this resulted in the only Mach 3 that could comfortably exceed 60 minutes on track and therefore meant only 5 stops rather than 6 or even 7. Frozen fuel was tried, but it was found that moisture condensed in the fuel and caused carburation difficulties. The dry ice rig was used, so the opposition thought that chilled fuel was being used.
Castrol supplied some oil for the injector system that came from an unmarked bottle, but smelled a bit like castor.
Final issue was that the forks bottomed under brakes at ‘Stop corner’ causing the bike to ground as it was tipped in. Stronger springs could not be fitted, and the original fix was to fit some internal spacers incorrectly (“Sorry sir, I’ll kick that bloody apprentice’s a*se”) but that had caused the disqualification of the BMWs, so something else had to be done. The answer was to drop some dry ice into the fork before the cap was fitted. Some experimentation found that, from memory, two spoonfuls in each leg got the desired spring stiffness, and a good rising rate. (“Gee sir, the pressure really built up under racing conditions”)
Dunlop K81s (TT100s) gave the grip and there were no wheel changes during the race.
The result of all this ‘standardisation’ was a class win and an overall top 5 finish, the only Mach 3 to finish ahead of a swarm of Yamaha RD350s, and well ahead of many 750s and open bikes. The bike was featured on the cover of Two Wheels magazine the following month with a very complimentary road test inside.
Not that I would know anything about it, of course =]
Pat
Just a little fun as you work out the future!
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