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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2012 : 9:16:20 PM
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The question about running push rod pommy bikes born in the 70's actually racing in P3 has been asked. The Historic Committee in Melbourne is looking at encouraging such a promotion. It involves running machines derived from earlier periods , but built in the later periods being able to race against similar machines. Maybe as Classic 750cc 1 and Classic 750cc 2.
The same can apply with some 500cc machines that had distributors added but are essentially old dodgers and again in the P2 /p3 divide when some rigid framed machines were born too late to compete within MA rules but really are P2 machines.
What are your views, who has machines eligible.
I know of 2 750cc Triumphs and one 500cc Triumph at thsi stage.
Please help us, please dont off topic.
Machine possibly eligible are Triumphs, Nortons, BSA's can you name any others or some which may need to be looked at carefully , thanks
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 10:56:28 PM
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unit construction triumphs should have been allowed into p3 years ago along with other out classed p4 bikes
just my 10 cents worth |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 1:18:56 PM
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The wise are always 20 years late.
The topic is to encourgae suppoort and find machines etc, thsi came across my desk thsi morning
"Hey John, Can you see if 1972 Harley Sportsters up to 1000cc be included. The Sportster
changed to 1000cc in 1972 and had a single disc option. Some were fitted with the single
rotor and caliper from the 72 Electra Glide as well by owners.
There's three available for a start without looking too hard.
I reckon I could round a couple more up after a while.
What do you think?
I'd love to race mine but it's a P4 Unlimited at the moment, no point even trying
that's why I like this idea. I think it will catch on.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 3:07:59 PM
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They made the first twin-cylinder unit construction model in 1957 with the release of the 350 cc Twenty One 3TA (so named because it was approximately twenty-one cubic inches capacity). The 500 cc Triumph 5TA followed, and the 650 cc models were made unit construction in 1963.
So YES unit Triumph can run if 350cc or 500cc. 650/750cc NO!! |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 3:22:09 PM
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Thsi plan involv es having the later unit construction machines, which are basicaly the same technology as the earlier ones to race against reasonable competition.
It does not look at when it was built etc, just what technology is involved. And they would be identified as later model machines.
The plan is not intented to usurp the existing stucture, just to add machines if possible. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 May 2012 3:23:40 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 08:49:52 AM
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This is an idea following up on John's idea to get more classic type
>> unlimited bikes on the track.
>> Unlimited classic to have two classes run together, but having separate
>> points.
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>> Classic Unlimited 1. 1945 to 1962
>> Rules as they are now.
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>> Classic Unlimited 2. 1963 to 1972 Must be log booked, (if MA accept
>> this sub class)
>> Single or twin cylinder four stroke air cooled engines, non grand prix
>> (such as G50 or Paton), up to 750cc. This would include all British
>> twins: and Japanese twins such as Yamaha XS650, Honda CB450, Kawasaki
>> W650, and European BMW's, Ducati's, Laverda's, Moto Guzzi's;
>> and Harley Sportster could be included (although they are 885cc).
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>> Allowed modifications: Engine internals except stroke and number of
>> valves. Carburettors but no flat slides or power jets as per GCR
>> 16.6.4.3. Frame and forks, but must be period. Brake drums. Front
>> single disc of a diameter to be determined, one or two piston caliper and m/c free.
Fork yokes
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>> Allowed : cast wheels if originally fitted to log booked model, must be
>> OEM wheels. Multiple disc brakes as fitted to log booked model. Must be
>> OEM. Alcohol fuel. Wheels as per GCR 16.5.3.1.
>>
>> Prohibited: Non motorcycle engines and transmissions, Fairings unless
>> OEM for log booked model (exact replica OK), fuel injection, gearboxes
>> with more than 4 speeds unless OEM for the log booked model, Monoshock
>> rear ends unless OEM for the log booked model.
>>
>> All GCR's from 16.1.0.1 to 16.4.2.12, and 16.5.1.3,16.6.1,1
>>
>> GC
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 11:07:05 AM
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| in that case Norton 850 wll be ok!! |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 12:02:38 PM
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| Well it is UNLIMITED Classic!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 3:03:10 PM
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Unfortunately we always seem to fall over this year of manufacture nonsense.
The whole idea as I understand it is to allow bikes made out of period but with period technology to compete where they should be.
Hopefully there are bikes in sheds that may come out to play if they are given the right playground.
Call them post classic classics if you like, just as the Molnar Manxes are.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 6:14:53 PM
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John F you are spot on with the description.
Away from this site there is much discussion, if anybody wants to present an opinion please do so, or for ever hold your piece.
We are building on an idea to be flexible but realistic. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 7:07:03 PM
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@Allan 'in that case Norton 850 wll be ok!!'
Thank you, I'm happy to race against any air cooled two valve four stroke single, twin or triple of less than 1000cc up to about 1985, running any fuel, tyres, suspension, frame or brakes. That would include the 851 Pantah, Harley Sportsters, Guzzis and a whole heap of other stuff we never see racing these days. If the grid is to have four cylinder superbikes or two strokes included - I won't be there ! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 7:16:04 PM
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To John Daley:
I'm glad to see you becoming so progressive. You give me hope that we might actually end up with a class in which it is worth racing my Seeley 850. Keep up the good work!
(Please get me onto the grid with those Ducati 900s which sometimes appear in Period 5) |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 7:29:35 PM
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Dear John - how many times have I made similar comments on this forum ? :
'The wise are always 20 years late.
The topic is to encourgae suppoort and find machines etc, thsi came across my desk thsi morning
"Hey John, Can you see if 1972 Harley Sportsters up to 1000cc be included. The Sportster
changed to 1000cc in 1972 and had a single disc option. Some were fitted with the single
rotor and caliper from the 72 Electra Glide as well by owners.
There's three available for a start without looking too hard.
I reckon I could round a couple more up after a while.
What do you think?
I'd love to race mine but it's a P4 Unlimited at the moment, no point even trying
that's why I like this idea. I think it will catch on.'
Bring 'em out, I'll 'ave ya !
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racer7
Level 2 Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 06:54:50 AM
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"Away from this site there is much discussion, if anybody wants to present an opinion please do so, or for ever hold your piece.
We are building on an idea to be flexible but realistic."
Thanks for the opportunity ........ I have this really strange idea that the Honda CB350 twin should be P3. MV and Honda produced 350 twins within the P3 cut off. Of course front disc brakes would need to go .....
racer7 |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 08:13:44 AM
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We are not looking at machines that just sneak in, or were produced in low numbers.
We are looking at realistic areas where an established model is well entrenched in P3 . but were continued in one for or another into P4, just as the example points out.
Any idea that people can find an anomoly and step back is not going to be considered. In fact I guess we may need to specify which machines are ok, and then investigate any weird ones that are presented. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 09:14:45 AM
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| John, Surely this matter is about technology? In the pre 62 era, the TT machines were usually air cooled four stroke twins and singles. In 1963 the YDS1 Yamahas killed them off. The simple fact is that a 350 Honda twin from the 60s is pretty much the same technology as a 350 manx. The brake issue is bullsh1t. In the late sixties we all raced with the two types of brakes on various bikes - the rule is as always - take care ! Paranoia about who might beat you will kill of this new approach. Any post 62 aircooled four stroke is a continuation of the early technology. Racing two strokes and superbikes against machines with the old pre62 technology is a load of cr@p ! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 10:55:28 AM
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I commend this idea and feel that it is now time to make a statement of intent.
The sooner the intent is published the more likely it is that bikes will come out of sheds and get logbooked in time for the Southern Classic. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 12:19:37 PM
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This is an idea following up on John's idea to get more classic type
>> unlimited bikes on the track.
>> Unlimited classic to have two classes run together, but having separate
>> points.
>>
>> Classic Unlimited 1. 1945 to 1962
>> Rules as they are now.
>>
>> Classic Unlimited 2. 1963 to 1972 Must be log booked, (if MA accept
>> this sub class)
WHY NOT CALL IT POST CLASSIC CLASS 2!! WHEN IN FACT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE |
Allan Greening |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 12:25:49 PM
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This would include all British twins
No 850 nortons but u then say 883 hd's
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Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 1:46:09 PM
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Listen everybody. Settle down and think. Classic Unlimited is Classic Unlimited. That means machines up tp 1300cc noy 849cc. It could be if we had heaps turn up we would split it 750cc and then 851 and then 899 and d etc so everybody gets a trophy. We are talking about machines described earlier.
WE are not talking 2 stroke, nor bored out models not made prior.
So settle down and build a bike |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 5:57:53 PM
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Listen everybody. Settle down and think. Classic Unlimited is Classic Unlimited. That means machines up tp 1300cc
if classic then upto 1963 "but" if as u say 1963 upto 1973 "must" be postclassic..
other wise u have a "post classic" class being called "classic"
just don't make sence |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 8:05:03 PM
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You know, I am amazed how quickly some people can wreck a conversation.
We are talking about machines built in 1973 which are very, very similar to machines built pre 1963.
Same technology, same basic design.
We are pretending they were actually made pre 1963.
Thats what the deal is about.
Thats why we are not calling them post classic in this proposal, much the same way we dont call transvestites men or women.
So please understand we are calling machines effected by this proposal as "transvestites " if you like.
So please lets move on from the name so we dont get worse.
The basic underlying issue with thsi idea is to get more bikes on the track that are similar to the older ones, and my personal view is dont get involved if you dont like it. The spectators will not know the difference until they read the program.
Its not designed to cheat, rip off or any other issue some may be thinking.
Regards
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 08:39:12 AM
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John, I'm not interested in getting trophies. What I want is to race other thunderbikes of under 1000cc of any age whatsoever. I don't even care if they have trick suspension or frames as long as they are two valve, air cooled engined singles, twins and triples - NO two strokes or four cylinder superbikes. Racing for me is about having fun. If anybody wants trophies, they'd just buy a TZ and pay the bills.
Most 250cc two strokes on alcohol will kill any thunderbike, so why would you race an old fourstroke? I've got a good two stroke bike in my shed, it's not what I want to race , and I recently sold an excellent TZ350G to Alan Hay's business partner.
The reason I love my Norton 850, is that when you ride it you can feel the hairs growing on my chest. Racing off a grid full of them would be superb !
'BRING OUT YOUR DEAD! ' |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 09:12:24 AM
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John,
How about at the Southern Classic we run two classes of thunderbikes instead of the under and over 500cc P3 classes?
Note Definition:
Thunderbike: - a machine with a single cylinder, twin cylinder,or three cylinder, two valve per cylinder, air cooled four stroke motor !
You must be logged in to see this link.
The changed races :
1. An under 500cc Thunderbike class which would encompass the P4 BSA B40s, Ducati 450s and P5 SR500s, as well as the usual P3 350 Manxes and BSAs.
2. an over 500cc Thunderbike class (up to 1000cc). Which would include P5 Nortons, Harleys and Ducatis, P4 Nortons and Triumphs, P3 Vincents.
All bikes would be log booked in one of the periods. The allowance of alcohol fuel usage would make the earlier bikes competitive with the post 72 machines.
As far as the brake differences are concerned, riders must be warned to take care when braking within a group of riders. We had the same considerations in the late sixties !
Then we could have a really good go ! |
Edited by - conker on 13 May 2012 09:33:19 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 09:44:29 AM
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| Alan, I will pass that idea oln to the Historic management Committee for a start and then over to the HMRAV after we have written something clearly. Thanks |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 12:05:36 PM
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John, if the thunderbike class only happened for bikes over 500cc up to 1000cc, and included P3, P4, and P5 - that woud be excellent. If the guys with bikes under 500cc wanted to elect to ride in the 1000cc thunderbike class, the grid size would be the only limitting factor.
Personally I wouldn't gripe if the D'Avanti, and Gowandloch Ducati 900s got a ride, something like the Corish Vincent should be up with them.
Thanks for giving this idea some consideration. It could bring a lot of old interesting bikes out of the woodwork. At the Bonanza I saw about three 750cc Rocket three racers, and we haven't seen Doug Gorrie's one for years. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 12:09:53 PM
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| AS far as fourstrokes are concerned, the major performance boost comes from increasing the number of valves in the motor. DOHC makes little difference. There are no 4 valve per cylinder air cooled production Ducatis except for the one Cathcart owns (ex McGee)! And the 900s are heavy. Anything else will not be a problem to earlier bikes. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 12:55:00 PM
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| Can we get back to the satrt. As you know, my knowledge of Solos is limited, what machines could be eleigle that were common in the day please? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 08:59:34 AM
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John, I will start from the top:
1. Thunderbikes over 500cc, up to 1000cc :
Period 6
Ducati 851 Pantah
Moto Guzzi 750, 850
Laverda Ghost 600
BMW 1000
Harley 883, 1000
Period 5
Ducati 900
Triumph 750
Norton 750, 850
BMW 750
Moto Guzzi V7 750
BSA Rocket 3 750
Triumph Trident 750
Laverda 750, 900
Period 4
Norton 750
Triumph 650
BSA 650
Period 3
Norton 600,650
Triumph 650
BSA 650
Vincent 1000
JAP 1000
Anzani 1000
2. Thunderbikes up to 500cc
Period 5
Yamaha SR500
Laverda Montjuic 500
Period 4
Seeley G50
BSA 400, 350
Ducati 350, 250
Honda XL 350 etc.
Triumph 500
Honda 250, 350, 500 twin
Period 3
Manx 30M, 40M
AJS 7R
Matchless G50
BSA 350, 500
Norton 500 twin
Matchless 500 twin and single
Hope this helps, best regards, Al |
Edited by - conker on 19 May 2012 09:20:58 AM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 09:26:47 AM
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| When I look at the Thunderbike over 500cc, up to 1000cc, I'd love to be in a grid full of that stuff. The 851 Pantah could be quick, if somebody could afford the CR gear box. But they'd all be facing the same technology wall. |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 11:33:09 AM
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P3 plus
Norton ES2
Royal Enfield
Triumph 5T, T100, GP
Velo KSS, MSS, Thruxan, Viper
hve u forgotten some of the "old" brittist bikes Alan! |
Allan Greening |
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Topic |
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Running 1970's 750 Triumph sin P3
