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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:18:25 PM
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I think this idea has great potential to drag out bikes that are, through no fault of their own, social misfits.
The original concept of cut off dates may have seemed a good idea at the time but it failed to make allowances for the fact that technological change (or lack of) was far more important than the date on the calendar.
I hope this idea gets up, it will be fascinating to see a whole bunch of "similar" bikes sorting themselves out on the track. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:20:59 AM
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The up to 500cc Thunderbike classes would include all of the pre62 smaller British bikes, plus things like the Royal Enfield Constellation (GP ?), BSA Victor B40, B25, Honda singles from sixties and seventies, Ducati 250,350 and 450.
We would see manxes racing against the bigger Ducati singles, Yamaha SR500s, Seeley G50s.
But at least the races would look, sound and smell right. And the old dungers wouldn't be blitzed by thinly disguised RS125s and TZs or superbikes - they should have their own GP and superbike classes.
In the first instance what we are talking about are full grids for two races which would normally be Period 3 races. Personally I'd provide one extra exhibition race for top class Period 3 singles, so Manxes, G50s and Goldies could be show cased, outside of the thunderbike class. |
Edited by - conker on 20 May 2012 09:54:50 AM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 08:12:53 AM
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What could be really good, would be if the racing which involves all of the same type of bike could be run as a classic series on the second day of two day historic meetings.
John, If you remember what the BEARs brought with them, the last time they raced at Broadford - their bikes were all Thunderbikes ! And if we could somehow suck the BEARs into running again, and allow special dispensation for their lack of log books, we could end up with something really spectacular in the Thunderbike class. I believe the D'Avanti and Gowandloch Ducatis are not historics, but BEARs, and we should cultivate them.
Historics and BEARs are all classic bikes.
I believe road racing depends on a critical mass - we could end up with meetings which pull a crowd and are commercially viable.
I for onew would love to see the over 500cc up to 1000cc Thunderbike class, it might be really spectacular. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 9:18:41 PM
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Fellas, the topic has been hijacked again.
My original posted ideas are different from what you are now talking about.
I can tell you softly softly is the best way to work for success, grabbing an idea and hijacking the concept will guarantee a nil result.
I am seeking input from blokes who are racing via the club directly in the newsletter to gauge interest etc.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 05:29:51 AM
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John, all we are doing at this stage is having the discussion. I'm merely pointing out the direction your idea could take. I'm simply happy that sanity might prevail and my old Seeley Norton 850 might actually have an opportunity to be raced sensibly. This discussion has helped me look at my bike in a different light. I now actually feel like firing it up, instead of having it standing in the shed rotting. I will state one thing clearly right here and now. - I am not interested in racing it against two strokes and superbikes. If there is a Thunderbike type class run sensibly, that is a different story. Then we can actually race ! And it will be PROMOTABLE !
Even if you initially set the cutoff date at 1975, that wouldn't be too bad ! |
Edited by - conker on 21 May 2012 05:40:34 AM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 05:45:59 AM
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| It is not rocket science to get all the same type of bike which use the same old technology into the one race class. Two valves per cylinder, single, twin or triple cylinder, air cooled four stroke engined bikes, are what we are talking about ! No two strokes or four cylinder superbikes. It is not that difficult ! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 06:01:23 AM
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I was sitting next to Keith Ashmore at the Veteran Riders Association dinner two weeks ago. He still has his Triumph racers from the sixties. Keith and Les Ayton were extremely competitive in B grade in about 1970 - known as the 'Bonnie Boys'. And Rosenbob, has got his old Norton 750 back, and isn't doing much with it.
John, You can make it happen ! |
Edited by - conker on 21 May 2012 06:02:13 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 08:59:28 AM
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J.D. I think the main thrust of this idea is to encourage bikes to come out of sheds.
There are many that just sit hidden away because they do not have a sensible class to compete in.
Our sport is an audio visual sport and as long as the bikes look right they should be acceptable.
We need more bikes to attract more spectators.
Surely we could accommodate non log booked bikes with the proviso that they are not eligible for points if they don't have a log book. This, coupled with one event licences would make life much easier and could encourage more to come out to play.
The easier we can make it the more likely we are to get these snoozers out on a track. This can only be good for the sport. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 21 May 2012 09:04:59 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 10:16:04 AM
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In my experience if we walk one step at a time we will get there.
I am happy to separate the Thumper ideas out as a second effort, but I suggest we stick with step 1 initially and separately work on step 2. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 10:48:56 AM
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John, walking one step at a time is fine.
It also helps to know the destination.
Isn't step one about opening up the P3 "unlimited" class to bikes that are not strictly eligible?
Step two is what do we do to actually make this happen?
Should we canvass support to see how much interest there is?
Should we set up an eligibility committee to assess potential bikes?
We need to keep this moving along or it will simply fade away.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 11:35:51 AM
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| My belief is that log books are only essential for championships ! If they get in the way of making other meetings economically viable, the requirement should not be imposed. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 11:40:57 AM
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John Feakes
We probably need a special interest group for Thunderbikes to keep the process honest. A couple of reps at each meeting during scrutineering, or perhaps simply issue a certificate of machine acceptance for the series or each individual meeting ? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 07:55:22 AM
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| I'd be prepared to bet right now, that we'll never see a sixties unit Triumph Bonneville run with the bikes of Unlimited Period 3 at an HMRAV meeting. |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 4:16:48 PM
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| well there is one i agree on log books at club level are just a great way of making things a bit to hard .want to run at the aussie titles then you will have to jump trough the hoops to get one. at club level it should be more flexable on what runs and with who. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 4:44:00 PM
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If the meeting is not a championship, why does a log book matter ? It doesn't guarantee any level of machine authenticity anyway. Most of the historic machine motors are oversize, and still completely within the eligibility requirements. While we are talking aboput Period 3, I've seen featherbed Nortons with 1973 850 Commando engines in them - still have a log book. And why does it matter ? You can tell the difference between that and a Dominator or Atlas from about 30 metres distance. But it's the same old garbage.
It is only when we start getting motors with four valves per cylinder that there is a difference in basic performance. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 5:48:04 PM
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Al, I will take your money on that bet. $50
It really is out of order to be abusing the attempts to get a good idea going through the HMRAV.
The HMRAV has done a lot to encourage more bikes and models to the track, in particular the sidecars, Class 350 and 500cc solos.
We have improved things at Broadford and drawn crowds there as ell.
It still needs people to help on the ground though, there are many who cooment but few who actually help out.
John Feakes has been really helpfull at come n try days and management meetings helping myself.
I cant speak of any others putting in.
Please leave your money with Mick Ronk as the middle man.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 6:57:16 PM
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I will have another $50.00 as well if the bet is a serious one.
Keep up the good work John and try to get back to your original concept. Small but positive steps are what is required then you have a chance of success
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 06:52:47 AM
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John
I'm prepared to accept that this latest effort of yours is a serious one. Good luck with it, it is essential that we change our mindset enough to get some form of classic racing which is promotable. While there are no substantial gate takings, 'profit' from events will always come out of competitors' pockets. I have long been convinced that classic racing could be 'bigger than Ben Hur'. Intrinsically it is excellent, all that appears counterproductive is the format our racing classes take - it doesn't often have as much spectator appeal as it could, and it doesn't really inspire a lot of us to get involved again. I look forward to the day that I don't feel depressed thinking about my useless old sixties Thunderbike, for which there is currently no decent race class. It is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING ! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 07:22:55 AM
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John, I'm actually delighted that you are going down this path. I stopped racing regularly in the mid-seventies when Allpowers C grade ended up with Z1000 Kawasakis, H2 Kawasakis, RD350 Yamahas, and a few of us on old dungers. On my best day I led them for a lap with my 500cc Triumph,. It was a waste of effort and didn't mean anything. I love a good two stroke race, and I love to watch historic superbikes. But when they are combined in races with the old dungers, you get something which is like mid-seventies Allpowers C grade on steroids. I can do superbike, and I can do two stroke extremely well - why would I bother? - They are not the racing I want to do.
The Thunderbike class you might end up with would be great, and actually having a win in it would really mean something, because the other competitors have the same technology problems and costs as yourself. The races will look, sound, and smell right, and that also means something to me ! |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 07:32:20 AM
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| If you get this up and going, I'll use the $50 to get down to Broadford and back to see the first of your Thunderbike class races. And I'll add another $50 to buy a decent trophy for the over 500cc up to 1000cc final. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 11:08:43 AM
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| Alan - a question - you've signed yourself 'sidecar 21', why are you interested in what might run in an extended Period 3 Solo race ? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 11:40:09 AM
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Alan, can you step back from the bar and let somebody else get a beer!
I race sidecars and I have an interest also.
Please dont challenge anybody having a comment. The plan also covers sidecar engines anyway. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 7:16:57 PM
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Its OK John I am big enough to answe a sensible question. Forstly I see you didnt take either of us up on a bet.
My interest is and has always been Historic Racing but unlike you I dont have a personal agenda. For what its worth I am a purist along the lines of the NZ rule structure and the English VMCC structure. I have in the last 20 years raced many diferent bikes mostly in Period 3 and still have a couple of Log Booked bikes in my shed, its just that I prefer sidecars.
Now I will ask you some questions, why dont you stop your whinging and carrying on and either get out here your self or put someone on your bike who is capable of racing it. The other thing you might do seeing as you sem to have such good connections at Winton is to come up with a format for a race meeting, get a permit and run your own meeting the way you would like it run. In other words put your money where your mouth is and actually do something.
Sorry for going off subject John it wont happen again at least not on this particular score.
Alan Sidecar 21 and several solos #143 |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 05:02:54 AM
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Edited by - conker on 24 May 2012 05:06:18 AM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 05:05:50 AM
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| It is very difficult to interest the management of Winton Motor Raceway in running an event for historic motorcycles these days. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 08:02:57 AM
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Well, it seems that we have established, in principle, that this could be a good way forward.
I would suggest that as the next step we try to identify as many as possible who might be interested in bringing out an otherwise unused bike for such an event.
I am quite happy to ring around the Melbourne area to canvass support and test the reactions.
Your thoughts? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 09:32:45 AM
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I'm about to start compiling a register of competitor's who own Thunderbikes up to 1992 year of manufacture. I'll be collecting machine details, phone numbers and email addresses. And I'll see if I can establish a 'no reply email service' so that event information, and supp. regs. etc. can be circulated.
Perhaps we can coordinate our efforts ? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:19:58 AM
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| I have been on Facebook and used a place there to encourage discussion. The idea of doing something with Yammy 650,s has arisen. I have pointed out the we can actually race almost anything from the period, in the case of yammy 650 maybe we will need to offer a trophy as we did with 836 cc sidecars it worked. People often jest about racing for blocks of wood, but history hs shown that to be the case. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 05:30:23 AM
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'I have pointed out the we can actually race almost anything from the period'
What period are you talking about ? Surely there are bikes using the same old technology in every period ? Why would you exclude a 1973 unit Triumph 750 or Norton Commando from an extended over 500cc Period 3 race? They are not going to go any faster than a pre-unit Triumph or Norton, and they make the same noises and look right. The idea to include Yamaha 650 twins sounds good to me, Trevor McKie has a very nice one with an American flat track frame - it's the same old garbage as any Brit twin. The only difference with the Yamaha is that you can make the motor much bigger and stagger the crankshaft, but even then they are still rubbish. |
Edited by - conker on 25 May 2012 05:37:05 AM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 05:44:14 AM
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| The only way anyone could easily dominate the suggested extended race class, would be to use a four valve motor. Anything with a big Nourish/Weslake engine or similar should be excluded. But there is really nothing in aircooled singles twins and triples with two valves per cylinder, which could do what Rex does to Period 4 with the overbored CB750s |
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Running 1970's 750 Triumph sin P3
