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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2002 : 12:43:27 PM
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These bloody stupid eligibility rules get right up my nose! Forgotten Era extends up to 1979. What about later bikes - do we just forget them altogether? Seems to me historic racing should include any bike with a tubular steel frame and eighteen inch wheels. This would mean you could race early eighties TZ's and Ducatis. All we need to do is change the eligibilty requirements for Forgotten Era. Whoever dreams up the eligibilty rules forgets that time marches on. As machines become redundant we lose them because there is no class in which they are competitive until some idiot dreams up a new historic racing class. What comes after Forgotten Era, if it finishes in 1979? It's now 2002 that leaves 22years of motorcycles lying in sheds, if you don't count the latest (competitive in moderns,models). Clubs like HMRAV who only want to cater for the halcyon days up to 1962 don't help. Their penchant for excluding Forgotten Era bikes from their meetings means that if you are really serious about historic racing, you need to buy the $80,000 Andy Molnar Manx or a George Beale G50 to be competitive in the senior classic class. The stupid omission of a 750 class from post classic era means the only way you can be competitive is to buy a replica of Rex's Honda.
Whoever makes up the eligibilty rules needs a good kick up the bum. Their is no reasonably cheap machine which is competitive in historic racing and which is supported by the motorcycle industry in Australia. The rules preclude anyone making a quid from homologation of such a machine. You will always have to buy the $6000 six speed gearbox for Pre 62 racing, and a $5000 double sided Manx Brake if you want to keep up.
I don't know why we have eligibilty problems in Australia, the Poms seem to be able to race bikes up to the mid eighties, and in classes in which the bikes race on a fairly equal footing.
Simple question- In what class of historic racing is a Seeley G50 competitive? This bike was the ultimate British single cylinder racing machine, it made a manx look stupid. Paul Smart Won a GP on one in 1972, against the two strokes. No class in Australia caters for them, so what's the story?
Do we set up the rules to cater for modified road bikes only?
I suggest it's time we looked at our sport and changed the eligibility rules to make it cheaper, and easier for the young guys to compete. we could start by banning five and six speed boxes from the Pre 62 class and allowing use of any size drum brakes, even the big Grimeca, or even a single disc.
Alan Cotterell
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2002 : 6:24:18 PM
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| Alan, its my understanding that proposals can be presented to each of the controling bodies in the states for discussion. Do you think there is any way you can encourage riders to develop a proposal that may work for all new eras as they develop. I cant think of one at the moment, but I am aware what ever you get will need support from each Historic Management committee in each state. My limited experience of those committees in recent times suggests any proposal will be considered. So lets work on a scheme to automatically create categories.I do ask the question about where do the current batch of racing machines extend back to at any point in time? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2004 : 10:18:59 AM
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| John, I previously mentioned that I rode in the first ever historic demo at winton in 1973. at that time the bikes were 11 years old (1962 Manx). These days the guys are so paranoid about getting beaten by a late bike the bikes are 25 years old (1979). We're not doing HISTORIC RACING it's something else! When is period 6 coming on line? I'd like to get Wally Campbell, Rob Phillis, Mick Cole, Kevin Magee, Andrew Johnson and Gregg Johnson, all on early 80/pre 80 Superbikes. (they're all still about and interested) We might actually draw a crowd!! It'd give Stuart Loly something for his corner too. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
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1 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 11:05:24 PM
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I guess this answers my first question....I have a 1981 Z500 Kawasaki sitting in the shed and I was hoping to race it in Forgotten Era. I'm new here and so I need some help - Will I be able to race this bike at all?? Any help and/or info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Kobo... |
Anyone can go fast.... |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 11:41:58 PM
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No.
It is outside the periods covered by Historic racing.
Join Hartwell or the NSW equivalent and go club racing with them you will have a great time. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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trumpybob
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
29 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 11:52:06 PM
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| Question; how many classes of historic bikes can fit into to one race meeting ? as new classes are introduced wont they have to separate into different clubs/meetings ? to suggest that the clubs currently catering for classics should encompass all other classes as they arise might be a bit unreasonable. |
Racing is everything,the rest of the time is just waiting |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 08:59:48 AM
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Nobody has really put much tjought into this at the moment.
But my guess is that in reality for reasons which would be good to turn around, the pre war stuff is not fronting up. Accordingly there may be room in the program eventually for newer machines.
The other issue we have is that the F /Era fields are not big in Vic. so who could justify P6 et.
Currently these potential P6 bikes are being happliy catered for in Vic. with Hartwell club racing at the moment. But in my experience the blokes howling the loudest to come racing are the slowest to get involved in administration to assist making things happen, so that is something people need to acknowledge. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 11:01:30 PM
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if the 1981 z500 is similar to the 1980 model then its eledgible for p5 racing. otherwise the fields of 1981 gsx suzukis couldnt race and they dont even have the same engine as the 1980 version. seems whoever is aproving the log books for various bikes doesnt apply the same standards to all.
like the 41mm fork issue, as long as you remove the anti-dive setup from the bottom of the 1985 gsxr fork sanction, you can use it even though it doesnt even remotely resemble an original 41mm leg sanction from the period. BUT my friend who uses 2 piston sumitomo front calipers was told that these type of calipers are no longer eledgible for p5 racing because they are from a 1981 yamaha and they are not an exact copy of the 1980 sumitomo calipers as used on the production version of the RGB500 suzuki. this caliper has the brake line entering the caliper via the outside piston rather than the top as the 1981 yamaha one does. now this is such an insignificant difference that im suprised they ever mentioned it. surely the difference between the 2 versions of the brake caliper is much less than the difference between the fork legs, but it seems to be not what you know, but who you know concerning issues such as this one.
fortunately i have found some pictures of the 1979 AND 1980 Yoshimura F1 Suzuki as raced in the Suzuka 8 Hour and it does use sumitomo front calipers very similar to the 1981 production ones, with the brake line entering the caliper from the top as like the 1981 yamaha version.. except they are machined from a magnesuim billet instead of cast in alluminium.
anyone know the email address of the log book eledgibility person socan email the pics to him?
how about one standard for all bikes and competitors , no matter what part of Aus they live in. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
Edited by - n/a on 01 Nov 2004 11:31:55 PM |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 12:57:32 AM
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The point made that pre war bikes are not fronting up is not accurate. When we get to Winton apart from Bears which dont count in this discussion the biggest field will probably be Period 3 Senior (500cc) followed by Period 4 Senior and Unlimited then Vintage Unlimited, just an educated guess from past experience.
In WA prewar is one of our classes that is increasing in numbers. Instead of trying to spread into a Period 6 why not promote Period 5 Forgotten Era instead, the numbers in most classes are pathetic, there will most likely be very few 125s very few 250s a reasonable number of 350s not many 500s and lots of Unlimiteds. There are literally hundreds of these bikes in sheds somewhere, our challenge is to get them out on the track not to just keep adding classes willy nilly without a lot of thought.
Going back to the original statement in this thread, when did Period 5 ever end in 1979 as stated.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 07:02:17 AM
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HHH I believe you need to have verifiable facts on the line before you suggest certain riders are getting favours. I have little to do with Eligibility other than asisting some members to answer the questions that come back.
But I have noticed that a number of people like to blame somebody else for their situation, I hear many tell me of ways to cheat the system and a few who suggest somebody else got a special deal.
When I have enquired I have not found eveidence to back the claim.
I ask that those who believe they are being treated differently to come to a meeting and point out any bike they believe has the benefit you claim, I personnally shall place the $70 protest fee on the table and lodge the protest.
If you are wrong a I shall publicise that fact as widely as is humanly possible.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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27 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 2:30:50 PM
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| John, I think I will take you up on that offer. My last 3 visits to a historic meeting checking out the P5 bikes has seen me leave shaking my head in disbelief. My log book application was returned to me requesting more information on the swingarm in use. I have seen since 4 machines with the same item (all with logbooks). Also evident were from late model gsxr' floating discs. Adjustable forks etc. Log books to create a level playing field, yeah right! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 3:49:45 PM
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Well, maybe we all need to do something at a track where it will have the greatest effect. I iintend to be at the Island Classic, if you want to give me the details of all the machines at the track so nobody can change the machine beforehand. I ride sidecar #68 please tell me beforehand how much money I need to have because I dont want to be short.
Now I reckon a good deal will be if you pay me double the protest fee if you are wrong.
Is it a deal? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
29 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 4:05:52 PM
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ROGER. WHAT SWING ARM ARE THEY NOT LETTING YOU USE, THAT OTHERS ARE GETTING THROUGH WITH ? IM CURIOUS, BECAUSE IVE HEARD OF PEOPLE GETTING AWAY WITH USING GSXR SWINGARMS, WITH TWINSHOCK MOUNTS WELDED ON. AS FOR YOU SEEING PEOPLE WITH LOGBOOKED BIKES, USING FLOATING GSXR DISKS AND ADJUSTABLE FORKS, THATS UNBELIEVABLE. IT MAKES MY MODIFICATION TO MY 41s INSIGNIFICANT REALY, DOESNT IT ? ALL WILL BE REVEALED IN WINTON. CANT WAIT!!! CALL ME OVER THE W.END.
WHITEY....0403 584800. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 5:08:04 PM
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| Rodger I forgot about the Titles I will not be there racing, bent valve and worn out body and mind.But I may be there on Sunday if the body gets rest in the mean time. Do you have a Bat phone number I can catch you with. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 10:09:04 PM
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unfortunately it is hard to understand what is insignificant when it comes to eledgibillity.
i understand that if a major or minor part of a motorcycle is not constructed within the specific period, then that part MAY be modified to resemble a part from the era. this would,should apply to the gsxr alluminium swingarms, if you modify it until its visually indistinguishable from one used in 1980 then thats fine.?
depends on who you ask...
i know of a racer who uses a gsxr swingarm,he has modified it to replicate the 1980 yoshimura swingarm, infact it is such a good job its hard to pick that its not originally a yoshimura one. but i have also seen guys who just weld 2 shock mounts to their gsxr swingarm and also claim it to be a period replica.
my concern about the calipers is because the 1981 sumitomo capliers are very similar to the 1980 and earlier ones. whilst the gsxr lower fork sanction is not similar to a 1980 one. YET the fork is allowed but the caliper is not. THIS is my problem concerning not haveing one standard for all parts.
i would prefer to see the rules changed to allow any 2 piston caliper and any conventional fork used, whether it has anti-dive or not.
there was 43mm forks used in 1980 so let people use them. it may even help keep cost down as a standard set of cbr600 or r6 forks would be cheeper to buy and work better than a set of modified period ones.
but for now there needs to be a consistent standard set regarding eledgibillity issues across the various parts used.
as for the discs, i havent seen a bike useing floating gsxr discs but i have seen one useing the fixed 1985-1987 gsxr discs. these do have a slight resemblance to a early 2 piece brembo disc but only VERY SLIGHT.
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There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
Edited by - n/a on 02 Nov 2004 10:14:26 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 10:55:07 PM
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Well the system involves protests but there also are other factors. Has the bike been changed since it was log booked, you need to compare the log book with the bike. I am aware log books are issued when the photos and descriptions suggest one item but an inspection reveals a different view.
I am also the commissioners agree there is room for improvement.
But at the end of the day if you really believe some machines are not kosher you need to protest at a meeting. If you are right you get the money back.
If you want rules changed the process is to work through the club, the LCB and then convince each State Committee of the merit of your case.
SO NAME THE BIKES YOU ARE WORREID ABOUT INSTEAD OF WHISPERING BEHIND THEIR BACK and MA can study the allegation, otherwise just conform to the specification asked by the assessor and get racing. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 11:12:52 PM
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| I'm not so sure it requires protest. we learnt a while back that Ross Martin is going to make a big issue of eligability at winton, well he's gonna ask other people to anyway. we learnt a while back that noone at the MA office knows squat about whats eligible and you have to deal directly with our beloved commishes. you can modify a newer part to look old, have a look at a lot of the classic brakes, but if you try to be a smart****, or lie or hide something they'll get ya. why not just tell the eligibility checker on the quiet before hand whats your problem bikes and let him sort it out then you can dodge the heat. |
Jayne |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 11:13:10 PM
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Well said John. The main issue here is people trying to stretch the rules, comply and be happy, the cheats will eventually get sorted.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 02:37:27 AM
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| why not just let any conventional fork up to 43mm be used, it will make life easy (and cheaper)for every one. JOHN have a look at into a GSX powered mcintosh.i tryed to get someone to look into it a while back,after a few months all the information i sent to ma was misplaced so after umteen interstate calls i gave up ,nobody seemed interested i'm not saying they are not legal. there must be some reason a bike built in 82 can race in p5, but i'm pretty sure the sumitomo caliper arguement is stronger |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 07:46:31 AM
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Why the push for 43 mm fork tubes when there are clear rules and plenty of really good sets of fork tubes around?
Dont forget I am a sidecar rider, I have heard of one McIntosh GSX, it has not got a log book yet because the owner cannot prove it is a copy of soemthing prior to 1980.Can you send me a message about the other one HAF. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 9:34:56 PM
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there are probably 6 or so gsx(16valve)suzuki macintoshes with log books at the moment, makes you feel sorry for the one guy who got caught.
as for asking "why push the 43mm forks..." well the fact is both road racers and motocross bikes used 43mm forks in 1980, so can you please ask under what grounds they are banned from historic racing?
anyway you will see plenty of historic race bikes useing both 43mm and 45mm forks when you get to phillip island as many of the english bikes use them, along with their 4piston brembo calipers and full floating discs. dont forget the 5 1/2 inch rear wheels too. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 10:12:18 PM
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I am aware of the English bikes with the big forks,different brakes and wheels but they cant have slicks I researched that prior to them coming they are complying with their rules, not Aussie rules. Maybe you are right about the Mac being unlucky but I have been informed that Macintosh himself has not been able to garantee every replica bike with his name on it is kosher. I guess he has verified some.
Just as we accept the rule which limits Z900's, Yammy TZ 750 from P4, kneelers and sidecar brakes from P3 sidecars, disc brakes from all pre 1962 because a line was drawn in the sand, a group of people some time ago draw another line in the sand with regard to P5. My advise is that 43 mm forks were unusual but they were certainly used on some road bikes, Harley Davidson, big bore Kawasaki's machines which were not really used as road race machines. Wayne Gardiner used 38mm forks. Why not accept it and get racing.
But I am intriuged by why you think you need the bigger forks?
Its my information that if machines do have " Illegal" forks, they will be eventually found out, so why not just name them and we can all get on with tuning our bikes please.
Snoozer had a good idea please try it, otherwise we will go round and round and you will never get to the track with your own machine. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 01:10:00 AM
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| to start with ALL the big four japanese manufactures imported bikes to australia with 43mm forks by the thousands in 1980. all the factory suzuki road race bikes that i know of used 43mm forks.the problem people are having with 41mm forks is not the fork TUBE(sorry i didn't realize you were a side car rider so i'll explain in more detail) a chrome tube can not be dated,it's the cheap piece of cast aluminium at the bottom thats the problem!.there is no adventage gained by using a more modern one, my suggestion to use 43mm forks of any type simply gives people a wider range of fork to choose from.you would need very good eyesight to pick the difference between any conventional fork from a spectators view why not try to make things easyer for everyone including eligibility checkers? |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 02:37:49 AM
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| john what would happen if MR.G.CROSBY decided to emigrate to australia tommorow and he hears about the pacfic challange?he decides to come out of retirement joins a club,blows the dust of his old GS1000R that has been untouched since he won the suzuka 8 hours on it in 1980.unfortunatly he will be unable to get a log book for it because his 43mm forks have been deamed ineligble,and the only way he can prove his magnesium bittet sumitomo calipers existed in 1980 is to show some pictures of some 1981 yamaha calipers and say these are very close copys but mine the proto types of them.would eligibility officers pat him on the back tell him it's all ok and ask him for an autograph or try to make life as difficult as possible? PS i haven't forgotten about the macintosh just ran out of time at the moment |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 07:37:57 AM
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Firstly in the case of the Trans Pacific Challenge, each team can ride with bikes that conform the their natiobnal rules. So if Crozbies bike fits the NZ rules it can race in the series.
As for continuing to suggest that special treatment is given to some, go direct to MA or the courts. Making accisations like that publicly are not wise there is a legal system that is best used to protect yourself.
Secondly, if your believe the rule is so wrong then get support, put up a rule change.Nothing is going to happen unless you get support.
I still dont know what the advantage is to be gained for all the anguish you are putting yourself through, you mention there is none, so why bother.
But as I said earlier each period has rules which are not historically correct but which everybody rides too, its been that way for time immorial. Other riders accept that, maybe the P5 ones need to as well.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 7:40:22 PM
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I would have thought that 'historic' racers would take pride in having a machine that was 'original/ as raced? What are you guys on about? One of the best historic racing bikes is Scott Webster's Moto Martin. It is 'as raced'in the Arai 500. While you are all looking at developing machines to get trophies, you've lost the plot. Why don't you 'develop' an R1, and have a good go?
I suggest there are a lot of people who look at historic racing as a place to have an 'easy win'. Where's the value in that? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 10:16:08 PM
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| john , i think u may have missed the point that Haf was trying to make. he said if Crosby EMIGRATED to Aus, therefor thats particular bike would have to conform to Australian p5 rules and therefore be inelidgable. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 10:48:48 PM
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I did miss that point. The NZ rules are different from ours and both sets are different from the UK which has 3 sets of rules depending which group you are dealing with. I agree it is complex, and may not be historically correct but I think you are putting yourselves through a lot of anguish unnecessarily.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 12:37:03 AM
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| JOHN i think you still may have missed my point.if crosby was an AUSTRALIAN he could NOT get a log book for his GS1000R that he last rode in 1980. evan though the bike was raced in 1980, it dose not comply to australian P5 rules. |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 03:21:17 AM
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| john RE:MACINTOSH the gsx(16valve)macintoshes that i'm refering to are genuine, NOT replicas they are called BR 1. BR stands for bathurst replica they were made by macintosh after his victory in the 1982 arai 500.i know a bike can be built outside the period as long as it is the same as the "in period" model thats fine. the only information i can find on macintoshes in 1980 is from a NZ motor show before any were made, there was a drawing of the frame and the news article said that a suzuki powered bike was being built and there were plans to build a frame to take a kawasaki power plant.then in an issue of AMCN from december 1980 there is an artice with a picture of ken macintosh standing beside his new bike. this picture quite clearly shows that the bike has a GS1000 "8 valve" motor. to the best of my knowledge it was planed that this bike would compete in the coca-cola 8 hour and the arai 500 in 1981. i belive it missed the 8 hour and competed in the arai 500 but was retired due to engine problems.there is an article in an august 1981 AMCN it has the first kawasaki powered macintosh in it,the bike is nearing compleation and was to be raced in NZ in the 1982 season. i haven't been able to find any information on a gsx(16 valve)motor fitted into a macintosh frame in 1980. the gs(8 valve)frame differs quite a lot from a gsx(16 valve)frame, the engines are used as stress member,the frame bolts to the front and side of the cylinder head ,a gsx(16 valve)head is about 100-120mm wider than a gs(8 valve)head you could NOT fit a 16 valve motor to a 8 valve frame the motor is simpily to big to fit in the frame also the 8 valve frame was used as an oil line (the same as the kawasaki)the 16 valve frame did not.also there are changes to the rear of the later model frame.unless i have missed something and someone can put me onto some information about a gsx(16 valve)macintosh in 1980. people should ONLY be able to use macintoshes with GS1000(8 valve) motors. also if macintosh had a 16 valve bike in 1980 WHY was he still using the 8 valve motor in 1981? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 08:31:22 AM
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Good point.
Well You need to present this case to the commissioners and I am happy to pass it over as well.In fact I have now sent it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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