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Former Member
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27 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 9:27:07 PM
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| I the question, why have logbooks when at the Aust Historics the bike was not even looked at by the woman checking. Even had to explain what a period bike was. Did not see one scrutineer ask for the logbook and compare it with the machine presented. I saw 43mm marzocchi forks on one bike and heard one rider dicussing the slipper clutch on another. An interesting discussion was had with a group of riders on the proposal for a capacity cap, I think MA will have a revolt on there hands if this gets up without indepth consultation with the RIDERS. |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 11:16:51 PM
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| at this years SA historic championships held at mac park i saw a Period 5 ducati with 43mm or larger Paoili forks and 4 piston gold line brembo calipers with modern floating discs. somehow it must have gotten through the log book policeman's watchfull eye. then i have also seen a Period 4 honda with '08 brembo calipers which i thought was also a bit 'out of period' ? |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 12:50:47 AM
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My bike when scrutineered was checked against its Log Book but as I dont try to push the limits I didnt have a problem. Maybe thats the answer, stop bitching, abide by the rules and if you dont like them either work on getting them changed if you have a legitimate reason behind the change or play a different game. You dont hear golfers and cricketers etc continually trying to change their rules so why should we. It seems to me that self interest not the good of the sport is the underlying reason here.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 02:14:26 AM
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Alan
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
72 Posts
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 12:50:47 AM
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My bike when scrutineered was checked against its Log Book but as I dont try to push the limits I didnt have a problem. Maybe thats the answer, stop bitching, abide by the rules and if you dont like them either work on getting them changed if you have a legitimate reason behind the change or play a different game. You dont hear golfers and cricketers etc continually trying to change their rules so why should we. It seems to me that self interest not the good of the sport is the underlying reason here.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA
CRICKET?..do they still have an 8 ball over,what about aluminium bats, underarm grubers to win games? incase you haven't noticed most games now days only go for one day! it's called changing with the times!the simple fact is that 43mm FORKS were comonly used in 1980. if forks were made "free" as long as they were 43mm and conventional it would make life easy for everyone (and cheaper).it seems that bikes are using them anyway with no problems.lets have a level playing for every one! |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 02:52:14 AM
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| JOHN i presented all the infomation i had regarding gsx mcintoshes to ma about 18 months ago, after many phone calls and getting the run around through just about every ma office in australia my information was miss placed i'm not going to put my self through trama again. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 4:52:48 PM
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I feel for you but all I can say is that if you dont keep up the fight, why ask me to do it for you.
I have my own machines to get ready as well, you know.
Its easy to give up, it's not easy to prepare a case and get support, its even easier to tell others where they are wrong but few people seem to be able to come up with time or effort to get solutions for the whole scene.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 09 Nov 2004 4:57:25 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 5:00:59 PM
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| Roger I am just wondering when we can get to use some of your experience in helping at the track. We are always looking for people to help even racers who can assist with scrutineering prior to racing. The whole of the HMRAV committee fits it in , when can you help? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 6:11:28 PM
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| HHH I was checking the Brembo's for my Sidecar. Brembo fitted calipers to 1970 Ducati 750cc. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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3 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 9:37:24 PM
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| 3 spoke wheels from the mid 90's, 41mm forks from the mid 80's, replica floating discs, alcohol fuel, and these all go under your radar where eligibility and " in the spirit of the era" are concerned. But a Mcintosh frame built in 1979, a GSX1100 motor from 1980, a LOG BOOK and every other component from well within the period and you have a problem. The Mcintosh Suzuki's have SPOKED WHEELS ( seen any of them at the front of the grid lately?) standard cast iron ducati discs, standard GSX master cylinders, standard GS1000 forks, get the idea? Look at the grid, they resemble what was in the period a thousand times more than anything else in the race. Any particular reason you have a problem ? Or are you just trying to systematically remove the bikes that finish in front of you so you can get a trophy? Cos you can have one of mine if your brave enough to reveal your identity. |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 11:16:47 PM
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One little point no one has picked up on yet is that bikes are easily changed once Log Books have been approved which is one of the reasons MA is looking at systematically checking Log Booked bikes in the near future. One other point is that machine examiners are supposed to ask the question "has this machine had any changes made to it since the Log Book was issued" If done consistently especially at club level the blatant cheats will gradually be taken out of the sport and while it is not the Australian way why not lodge a few protests here and there. There is no justification for cheating in our sport and we should all do what we can to eliminate it.
Yes I do believe in Log Books even though I had the devils own job getting my first sidecar through.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 02:24:52 AM
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| JOHN:maby your right. i think i may have been going about it the wrong way, it's probably better to take all my information to the track and protest there. if i'm proven correct dose that mean ALL GSX MCINTOSHES will be baned or just the ones that are at that particular meeting? i don't think i'll see any until the island classic in january ..............................also HHH was talking about a brembo f08 caliper if what you say is correct and they were being used in 1970 they must hold some sort of record for having the longest unchanged production run of a motor cycle caliper bmw were still using them in 1987! |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 03:48:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bert
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 9:37:24 PM
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3 spoke wheels from the mid 90's, 41mm forks from the mid 80's, replica floating discs, alcohol fuel, and these all go under your radar where eligibility and " in the spirit of the era" are concerned. But a Mcintosh frame built in 1979, a GSX1100 motor from 1980, a LOG BOOK and every other component from well within the period and you have a problem. The Mcintosh Suzuki's have SPOKED WHEELS ( seen any of them at the front of the grid lately?) standard cast iron ducati discs, standard GSX master cylinders, standard GS1000 forks, get the idea? Look at the grid, they resemble what was in the period a thousand times more than anything else in the race. Any particular reason you have a problem ? Or are you just trying to systematically remove the bikes that finish in front of you so you can get a trophy? Cos you can have one of mine if your brave enough to reveal your identity.
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BERT:i'm not saying that a MCINTOSH didn't exist in 1980. quite clearly you do not understand my argument (that i gave the names and months of the magazine articles as a reference your welcome check them)if the frames were around in 1979 why did the article form the NZ motor show say that the frame that was pictured there was being built? a GS1000 mcintosh frame existed in 1980,and we all know that a gsx motor existed it 1980 but the motor could not be fitted to the frame(and was not fitted to a mcintosh frame until late 81 or early 82)i have no problem with a mcintoshGS1000 in P5.if you want to race in P5 put your running gear into a gsx frame so it's legal or start pushing for P6...........HAS anyone ever wondered why all the GSX MCINTOSHES use wire wheels,have standard cast iron ducati discs, standard gsx master cylinders and standard gs1000 forks?.........MABY IT'S SO THAT THE ENGINE/FRAME COMBINATION CAN GET "UNDER THE RADAR"? just a theory!..............i have never mentioned alcohol fuel but in the article on the first kawasaki mcintosh in AMCN august 1981 it says that the bike would run on methanol(why not just use pump fuel for all unlimited P5) ........................PS.i asked if any one had any information of GSX MCINTOSHES in 1980 DO YOU just let me know which magazine and the month as soon as you can prove me wrong i'll drop the subject |
Edited by - haf on 10 Nov 2004 03:51:01 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 08:51:28 AM
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| When you protest agaiants a bike that bike only is dealt with. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
29 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 09:51:25 AM
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CRIKEY! I CANT BELIEVE SOMEONE IS MAKING SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT THESE BEAUTIFUL McINTOSH GSX1100s. AS BERT SAID THESE THINGS ARE WAY MORE PERIOD THAN 90% OF THE OTHER BIKES OUT THERE. THEY CERTAINLY LOOK THE PERIOD PART OUT THERE AND REPRESENT THE ERA OF THE CLASS FAR BETTER THAN ALOT OF OTHERS. I PERSONALY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY WE WOULD WANT TO TRY AND OUTLAW THESE PEICES OF RARE RACING HISTORY, AND ONLY ALOW MODIFIED ROAD BIKES, OF WHICH MOST ARE NOT PERIOD EITHER. THE SPECTATORS LOVE TO SEE GENUINE OLD TIME RACE BIKES OUT THERE, NOT JUST ROADIES. LEAVE THEM ALONE AND GET RACING FOR THE FUN AND ADRENALINE WE CRAVE. IF ALL THE THREATS OF BANNING GO AHEAD, THERE WILL BE 2 OR 3 BIKES ON THE GRID AT A TIME AT ANY 1 RACE MEETING! WONT THAT BE A FUN WEEKEND OF RACING! (NOT) BY THE WAY, I DONT OWN A McINTOSH GSX1100, BUT WOULD LOVE A FRONT FAIRING FROM ONE!!!!............WHITEY.
 HI THERE "BERT" !!!! |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 10:45:38 AM
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| i agree with you most of the bikes in P5 don't represent the period and everyone should be working to change that, but first lets "WEED OUT" the bikes that can be proven to be "not of the period"like GSX MCINTOSHES. you said that there are "modified road bikes not of the period" as well which models are they? KATANAS are banned from P5 they were made a lot closer to the december 1980 cut off date than a GSX POWERED MCINTOSH and a katana is only a cosmeticly changed gsx1100. YOU CANT ALLOW BIKES "OUT OF PERIOD" TO RACE .......IT DOSEN'T MATTER HOW PRETTY THEY ARE!!!! |
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Former Member
deleted
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3 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 5:01:57 PM
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| Seems to me that if they have a log book, then eligibility has been established. This sport is too small for attitudes like yours, let it go, and just go racing. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 6:28:32 PM
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there is the small matter that even Ken McIntosh will not sign any thing to confirm whether he build a particular machine prior to 1980 because he cant be certain of the facts. So if the manufacturer is not sure of the exact details, it is hard to prove otherwise.
Where do I get this info, From Rudi Skank who has been trying to get a bike log booked and has spoken directly with Ken.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
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1 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 1:54:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
Good point.
Well You need to present this case to the commissioners and I am happy to pass it over as well.In fact I have now sent it.
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rvw |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 03:03:04 AM
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the silence it deafening, it appears that no one is able to put me onto information regarding GSX MCINTOSHES in 1980.--------------------------------------------
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Seems to me that if they have a log book, then eligibility has been established. This sport is too small for attitudes like yours, let it go, and just go racing............................................
.........in this case i don't belive the log book has established eligibility.to my understanding if i protest a GSX MCINTOSH at the track,and the eligibility officer agrees with the point i'm making,the GSX MCINTOSH rider must then supply proof through dated articles (magazines books ect.)if you can't do that the protest is upheld.some one correct me if i'm wrong but i belive thats how the system works..........PS:whats wrong with my attitude,and why should i let it go? one of these bikes WON THE AUSTRALIAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2002 and was runner up in 2003........if the bikes are "out of period" it's not fair to the other riders of "in period" bikes.......is it? |
Edited by - haf on 12 Nov 2004 03:05:36 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 07:21:31 AM
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As I have told you a hundred times, use the protest system that is what it is for.
As a sidecar rider I know nothing other than gossip about these machines. If you are worried there is a big error, them you have to be prepared to fix it or get on with your own racing.
Nobody else can do the dirty work. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 11:36:29 AM
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| sorry john , i was simply asking if any one had information about in period GSX MCINTOSHES it appears there is none. there fore i will be using the protest system as you suggested. |
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Former Member
deleted
10 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 12:24:41 PM
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Did MacIntosh offer frame kits? if so wouldn't these be treated the same as Moto Martins and other special frames
with any available engine in them ?
Chris |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 01:39:05 AM
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| a mcintosh frame uses the engine as a stress member,only the engine that the frame was designed for will fit.which is the reason why there are GS1000,kawasaki and GSX1100 frames.only a handfull of GS1000 and kawasaki frames were built, i belive the only frame kit was for the GSX1100 frame and it wasn't available until 1982-83 |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 5:42:20 PM
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| Haf have a talk with Rich he may be in a position to assist you with some good information. Let me know if it is the info you need please? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 6:14:35 PM
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surely if Rich or anyone has any information that could clear up this subject then why not post it here?
or does he want to make Haf an offer he cant refuse???
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There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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Former Member
deleted
72 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 6:49:09 PM
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i think the point Haf made was pretty good.
if you have any dated information then write it up here instead of trying to muddy the waters by accuseing other guys of haveing bikes that ALSO may be ineledgable.
this talk about haveing an identical replica because of the type of brakes and wheels is pointless if your talking about a replica of a 1983 model.
the 'line in the sand' was drawn after december 1980 then why cant you see that and instead of living in denial? try and orgainse a p6 class or petition for the extension of p5. |
There are those who do, those who used to do and those who never did..
why is this 3rd group always trying to convince everyone they know best? |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 03:24:27 AM
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| ??? why all the secrecy ??? this discussion seems to have a lot of people intrested in it,any information that rich gave me in private i would post on this page any way,if the information proves the existance of a GSX1100 MCINTOSH in 1980 it ends this discussion.....i belive however it will be a "looks of the period" argument which is why it hasn't been posted for every one to read........i have been honest i have given magazine names and dates for all the information i have posted WHY can't the MCINTOSH boys do the same and simply post their information with the name and date of the information source??? |
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Former Member
deleted
29 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 10:27:56 PM
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HEY HAFF. WHY DOES YOUR PROFILE SAY THAT YOUR A LITTLE 12 YEAR OLD GIRL. [Moderated]No Personal Attacks[/Moderated] ARE YOU ASHAMED OF LETTING PEOPLE KNOW WHO YOU REALY ARE AND WHAT YOU RIDE ? WERE ALL FRIENDS HERE.  |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 12:09:52 AM
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A lot of the comments are valid but in relation to the guys riding McIntosh framed bikes posting on here the question is do they actually visit this site in the first place.
It is my understanding that McIntosh made frames in 1980 and apart from the differences to allow the different motors to be fitted looked pretty much the same which using the logic that exists today would allow them to compete. The same applies to featherbed replica frames, how many of then are exact replicas with exactly the same dimensions and steering head angles etc. We all tend to get a bit uptight about the finer details of the section of sport we are involved in but we either have a total revisit of the rule structure and have a purist rule set or we have a racers rule set. If we go purist which is the direction this thread is heading then we may as well adopt the philosopy of racing and destroy our sport completely. If McIintosh frames were in existence in 1980 and they look similar to what is in use currently then that is where we are today with all the allowances and exceptions that are in the GCRs. The real answer is to go purist and only allow what was actually used in the relevant periods no exceptions. This will of course cause some serious problems all round.
I bet this gets some response.
Alan Sidecar 21WA |
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haf
Does not want to be here
Other Area
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23 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 03:16:17 AM
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| a quick bit of research with last years island classic program would reveal that there are mcintosh riders visiting this site.USING your arguement alan i could import a 2002 GS1200SS put a GSX1100 engine in it change the front discs and calipers and expect to get a log book for it because it is a replica of the 1980 GS1000R, i know the bike should be fitted with a gs1000 engine but it would not be as capable of running at the front so i changed it.(it's not as crazy as it sounds have a look at a GS1200SS on the web)a GS1200SS frame is a lot less than 120mm out from the original! if some one was to fit RGB500 body work to a 1985 RG500 road bike nobody could tell the difference!!!!!......i don't have a problem with a GS1000 powered MCINTOSH ....i don't have a problem with GSX1100 engine.....but when you combine the two and have GSX1100 MCINTOSH it gives an unfair advantage that did NOT EXIST IN 1980,is that in the "spirit of the era"??--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PS:...WHITEY i ride a KZ900 [Moderated]No Personal Attacks even in response to a Personal Attack[/Moderated] |
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