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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 9:00:32 PM
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For those of you who think its just me being alarmist, and singling Winton out, I found some interesting comments regarding Winton on a bike-related site:
Like everything else, money comes before lives. Driven on the track, marshaled at the track for years, get sick of raising dangerous areas concerns at that track and those concerns are just ignored... The worst part is when someone is killed and you know you've complained & complained about that spot.
and:
thats just winton,....... thats how is has and alway will be im afarid,...
and also:
It's a dangerous riders track,espesh in the wet! Motorcycle racing shouldn't be held there untill money is invested to ensure it can cater for all motorsport safely
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 07:36:01 AM
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| Jason, You are being absurd. If you widh to call a circuit 'dagerous', you might have to support your statement in court. I suggest you might couch your comments in terms of the Standards Australia document 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport'. Because that document could be read to you by the legal people of both your own rider's union, and the circuit owner. All race circuits are subject to risk assessments prior to use. Engineers from MA/MV and CAMS are always present. I suggest you might contact Standards Australia in South Melbourne, and read the document. If you have something to contribute about Winton safety, take it up with David White and Mick Ronke. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 3:06:31 PM
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Yes, even more absurd than you claiming it was one of the safest circuits in Australia?
"If you widh to call a circuit 'dagerous', you might have to support your statement in court"
What are you getting at here precisely? Sounds suspiciously like the sort of comments that got you banned the last time! Listen Alan, I have raced twice at Winton and won twice, its been good to me. These comments are from people who participate intimately in racing, not walk round with a clipboard (and apologies to those who carry clipboards and race or have raced aswell) Ride to the conditions, remember!! Look I know how it works, no-one wants to apply the letter of the law as it wouldn't just be Winton that fell short, and we need all the tracks we can get. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 9:23:25 PM
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| As an expert on safety, you'd know what 'laws' apply to motor racing circuits? How about you demonstrate your expertise, and define the term SAFE for us? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 9:30:01 PM
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| Jason As for me getting banned from this forum, it would probably be a good thing anyway. I'm about to walk away and pull the rug! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 12:28:57 AM
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| Not event the safety experts are experts. No one is. The laws are one thing and SAFE is another, you only need to look at our road usage to appreciate that. Racing is inherently unsafe, therefore it is a matter of risk minimisation. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 07:51:42 AM
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Jason, in the interests of progress I'll give you a definition of the term 'SAFE':
'A situation or condition where the risks are minimised to a level which is tolerable to all stakeholders.'
If you believe that a particular circuit is not safe, you should speak to the MA Steward, and if the situation is not tolerable to you, your club, family - GO HOME! But understand YOU also have a duty of care - responsibility to act if you see a hazard. I'm simply staggered at what you take for granted. The facilities at Winton didn't just happen - they were built by the Benalla Auto Club. As far as safety goes the circuit is subject to continual critical scrutiny. You seem to be unaware that when there is a fatality on a race circuit, someone must put their hand up in the Coroner's Court and take responsibility for it! If there has been gross negligence, the consequences could be a manslaughter charge. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 09:23:52 AM
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I dont take anything for granted Alan and I know exactly what my duty of care is. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 11:07:18 AM
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Here we go again, Jason is right, there are problems at Winton for bike riders and this has been highlighted on many occasions elsewhere. Fact is there has been a fatality recently at Winton and any death indicates something is wrong either in the systems utilised or the engineering. Forget the crap put out on the safety of tracks and the prescribed assessment tools riders make this safety assessment each time they use the track and the fact is they are making the assessment by NOT using Winton as much as they used to, perhaps they have been charmed by PI which I think is the safest, but not inherently safe. Winton is not that good these days on a comparitive basis and should be improved with bike riders, as opposed to car drivers, in mind. How they can charge what they do for that track is beyond me - the thing is not as good as PI in any sense yet the costs are comparable.
By the way sue and be damned.These are my views and I will put them up any time and would relish the opportunity. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 8:49:42 PM
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| Making an assertion about safety on this forum is NOT fixing any problem. You know why MA/MV have a steward at every meeting, why don't you use the complaints procedure? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 8:58:30 PM
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| The Coroner's report on the recent fatality at Winton, will be released to the public. We'll find out if anyone is culpable. Then we can all work together to change our midsets in the light of the evidence. Somebody has to put their hand up and take responsibility whenever there's a death on a race circuit. Perhaps we won't be racing in the rain any more? The whole incident is on video, there won't be any misinterpretation. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 09:50:04 AM
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Gentlemen, this is not the place to discuss this subject.
If you have concerns about safety at any track there are proper procedures to follow and hopefully get your concerns addressed.
Unfortunately we do not figure very largely in the overall usage of Winton and as long as the 4 wheel boys are happy with the current situation nothing is likely to change.
It would be worth drawing up a list of perceived problem areas and instigating a meeting with David White and Mick Ronke to discuss these concerns.
He may, or may not, consider making the requested improvements.
Winton, as most tracks, is a commercial operation and any decision regarding track alterations would be made on a cost/benefit basis.
You may not get what you want.
Who is entering the Manx GP? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 3:22:09 PM
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Alan, I need do nothing of the sort, people will vote with their feet and in fact are doing so.
Currently the perception is that Winton is NOT THAT GOOD. The options for the management of Winton, if they want to fix this perception, are easy. Fix the problems or have fewer riders paying them money to use the track. Is that a good enough cost benefit basis.
We need not make a complaint through some drawn out process that is biased to one dominant paradigm (car driving). On the contrary, this is exactly the place to discuss the topic, we can decide en mass if we want to boycott Winton or not (I personally doubt we could get the support). There is no question of culpability, simply the perception that the management of Winton is driven only by the buck, safety of riders is of a secondary consideration and that scarcity of places to race will guarantee a place in the sun (and profits) for some time to come. This latter point is no doubt a reason for David White et. al. not considering issuing the equivalent of a PIN on Winton over the walls near the esses. These people (MA) are already well aware of the issues at that track due to recent events, if they are not, then they should not be in the positions they hold.
As for the flippant comparison with the IoM, all I can say is two wrongs don't make a right, especially when it comes to peoples lives. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 3:42:47 PM
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| I guess the obvious question is: do Winton have the funds to make repairs? Are they cashed up or cashed out??? It would not be cheap to run a facility, no doubt, but we don't know the running costs versus revenue. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 4:51:29 PM
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OldKwak you are blaming A.C. for my comments.
The reality would seem to be that Winton doesn't need bike racing.
Unfortunately the 4 wheel boys are much better organised than we are, have more financial clout and more commercial savvy.
My understanding is that The Benalla Auto Club owns Winton, just as we (M.V.) own Broadford. Why would they worry about bikes?
The only way we might get Winton altered is by asking nicely and probably contributing to the cost.
To make any approach we would first need a survey of the perceived problem areas and then a rough costing on fixing things.
We have people who could do such an assessment for us but do we have anybody willing to put up money?
Yes, my comment about the I.O.M. may appear to be flippant but it does, in fact, put Winton into perspective.
You don't have to ride there just as you don't have to ride at the I.O.M. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 07 Jun 2011 4:59:11 PM |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 6:10:28 PM
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| John, The Benalla Auto Club Committee are happy to have the bikes on Winton, and will always act responsibly to control the risks. If people are suggesting that the whole circuit needs resurfacing, we'll have to wait for that. There are a couple of people amongst the car fraternity who might like to see us gone, but in general bikes are accepted and welcomed, just like any other customer. The club recongises that critical safety issues must be addressed, if they are not we could be sued or even charged in some cases. It's all about risk management. I've already mentioned the document 'Guide to Managing Risk in Motor Sport'. Perhaps it's about time a few people actually read it? If anyone has a safety issue to discuss, it's easy - Ring Mick Ronke on 03 5766 4235 and tell him about it. He is the CEO, and he's very effective. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 10:55:34 AM
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John, I think your comments are as helpful as AC's. Just so as you understand, the reason for the pulling of GP's from the IoM was GP riders refusing to ride there for safety reasons. That happened years ago. At the rate people die at the IoM I think it won't take long before the government over there start to take action, the only reason they haven't so far, maybe, are the bucks involved.
It ain't good enough for people (track owners etc and you John) to say "oh well he knew the risks he shouldntna done it".
If a number of people are killed or maimed - anywhere, due to some activity - governments usually step in and start stuffing it (the activity) up. In fact one only has to look at the pressure applied to AFL by Governments in respect of knee injuries and the rule changes that have occurred to mitigate as a result. Motorcycle racing is no exception. Safety being driven by the dollar is NOT a reasonable approach, not only for the individuals concerned but for the sport in general. Ignore this at the peril of Government intervention.
If the Benalla auto club was so concerned it would already have acted to fix the issues, they can't say they don't know about the hazards. If I were cynic I might even be driven to say the reason they are not fixing the problem is because to do so would be an admission there is a problem and as already pointed out by others, they might get sued. Fortunately I am not a cynic but I have given up on the "goodwill of man" where there is a dollar involved and no longer believe "this is the best of all possible worlds" when it comes to people looking out for each other. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 07:55:44 AM
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The major problem I see is the earth cliff at the exit from the esses.
Are there other perceived problem areas?
I would suggest that a wish list of desired improvements should be drawn up.
Submissions could be addressed to the road race management committees at MV for discussion with a view to arranging a meeting with Mick Ronke.
Anyone got a better idea? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 1:09:24 PM
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| OLdkwak, to modify the exit from the esses would cost $30,000, and all it would achieve would be to move the impact point up further at a higher speed area. In the old days the exit from the pits was there. Only one rider ever hit the end of the pipe under the road when he ran wide into the drain. These days the pit exit has been moved, and airbags are used when the bikes run. When the airbags were first installed the crashes there suddenly increased as riders became more confident. Carving out the spectator area is not an answer . You end up with a curve such as existed in the lead into the front straight at Oran Park, and people still climbed the concrete wall there. You need to face the truth about yourself. The riders will speed up to accomodate changes, and the result is wasted money. There is another important issue. These days the kids step straight of a 150cc Honda onto a 600 sports bike. Most of us went through out 'crash and burn stage' on bikes with much less power. Modern bikes are much more forgiving, but when the inevitable happens, it happens at very high speed. The question is - are the risks tolerable to you?, if not - GIVE UP! |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 7:52:08 PM
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So, to summarise Peter :
1: You need to face the truth about yourself.
2: 600s are quick.
3: Give up.
Hope this has helped ! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 10:18:31 AM
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Fascinating. So a costing has already been done on one problem area. Alan I just don't comprehend how you can say moving the wall back would "move the impact point up further at a higher speed area" What does that mean? Bike and rider continue accelerating when they've left the circuit??
Increase in incidents there once airbags installed - examples and stats please. This is too selective, we need to know other factors - has there been an increase in races held under wet conditions for instance? Weather patterns over the past few years would suggest this would be the case. The wall at the last turn at Oran Park was far too close to the circuit, as it was at many places around that circuit. If that curve had already been carved out then the wall must have previously sat literally at the edge of the tarmac.
"The riders will speed up to accomodate changes, and the result is wasted money"
This is an astounding comment. Can you see what its saying? This simultaneously says:
1/ Dangerous tracks prevent riders from trying too hard and so they crash less and are thus safer venues.
2/ Safety is a waste of money
3/ Riders will speed up if they think its safe to do so
4/ Riders don't mind crashing
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 4:39:12 PM
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I guess you are right GD I'm a chook (that's facing the truth) but I don't think I'm stupid (others might), most modern 600's are faster and more controllable than my clapped out old hunk of junk (but mine is fun) so best I give up (presumably trying to get this stuff fixed).
Thanks for the help , at least it provided some reflective food for thought, better than the other nonsense floating around. Better than supporting stuff that is manifestly and dangerously wrong, presiding over and being the apologist for the manifestly wrong situation or being, as it now seems and as Jason has pointed out, part of a cover up of the manifestly wrong.
At least being a chook allows me to sleep at night. Realising 600's are fast stops me from trying (most of the time) to do stupid things to my bike (like trying to keep up with them) allowing me to continue to my quest of being the best I can be, which ain't much on the global scale but at least I'm there racing. Maybe I should give up tilting at windmills (or at least the apologists for the manifestly wrong)but not give up on my quest. That way I won't get stressed and will live a long, enjoyable and not bitter and twisted life. If I need the kind of philospohical support being offered by AC I think I would have been better to have gone to Mr. Niagi out of Karate Kid and learnt to wash cars.
As for the determinist logic used by AC (eg: my cat has four legs, my dog has for legs so my cat is a dog), I can only say - wow. That adds to his cred. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 6:31:47 PM
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| Old kwak. If you are riding an old kawasaki 900, you are giving yourself a hard time. A lot of the old Jap stuff didn't handle that well. A lot of guys seem to resent others using trick frames. I suggest you should talk to Scott Webster and ask him he has trouble with the Moto Martin Kawasaki coming out of the esses. If the bike is handling right it should self-steer in the direction which it is laid over under power. You shouldn't have to struggle to keep it away from the edge of the bitumen. My point about the 600s is that we old guys learnt on 60 horsepower bikes NOT ones with 150bhp. When you crash from a modern, it's a biggy. The handling is so forgiving that riders appear lulled into a false sense of security. Bad riding will eventually bring them undone regardless of how good the bike might be. Your kawasaki could have 130 BHP on tap, and none of the modern handling. Take care. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 07:38:54 AM
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| To Oldkwak. Sorry Peter, I didn't realise who I was talking to, and that I've seen your bike. When the 900s were first raced in about 1973, Alan Decker and Mick Hone were at the top. Vic Vasella brought the Jim Eade 720 SFC Laverda to Phillip Island and burnt their backsides. The 900s used to tie themselves up in knots. A bit later everyone had braced swing arms, but the steering geometry was still the standard Jap road frame type. Your bike looked a bit too low in the rear end. Are you sure you've got the best set up? The easiest thing to do in motorcycle racing is build something which scares yourself. I suggest you should buy yourself one of those magnetic based protractors and check your own bikes steering angle, then check those of the fast guys. On a TZ with 18 inch wheels the fork angle is 26 degrees. It changes for different wheel sizes. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 1:40:00 PM
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| My God, I give up!!!!!! |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 10:09:02 PM
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Alan, I give up too. But before I do, for good order's sake, a pic of the last turn at Oran Park
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Edited by - JasonL on 11 Jun 2011 10:11:26 PM |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 10:14:10 PM
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One more - this is how close the airfence is to the track at the esses at Winton (with effect of zoom lens of course....)
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 07:13:19 AM
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| Jason, There has been bike racing at Winton since the 50s. Very few people ever fell off coming out of the esses until the airbags were there. As soon as the airbags were installed several rider crashed there. So the airbags must have really been needed all along? Perhaps the speeds of the bikes have increased dramatically since the days we raced H2Rs, RG500s, and TZ750s there? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 07:19:24 AM
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| The point I was making about the 600s, is that the next step up for juniors after racing CBR150s, is often a 600. If they go through their crash and burn stage on those, we could have a few more fatalities. We seem to have lost a lot of smaller capacity classes which offered slower safer racing, more suited to kids with bad riding habits. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 07:52:49 AM
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This can be arranged Alan:
quote:
Originally posted by conker
Jason As for me getting banned from this forum, it would probably be a good thing anyway. I'm about to walk away and pull the rug!
Just sing out when you want me to ban you..
As for this comment John:
quote:
Originally posted by john feakes
Gentlemen, this is not the place to discuss this subject.
Why is that John, don't the relevant parties want this to go public so others know what others have experienced at certain tracks? |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 11:05:37 AM
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There are proper procedures to follow when anyone has a perceived or real problem.
Airing such issues on a public forum is not the wisest thing to do, particularly at the present time. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Winton comments
