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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 7:56:42 PM
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Poll Question:
Hello,
Should Modern motorcycles be mixed with Historic motorcycle racing?
I have been asked if I would allow the promotion of modern motorcycle racing on this site and feel it would be better for the public to vote if we should allow them to be promoted on this site. The request was only asked because the club involved believes it is the only way they can make a profit.
This site was setup to help Classic/Post Classic & Historic motorcycle racing in Australia, which includes solo and sidecars of of the sport.
If you would like to have your say, simply select one of the 3 options below and place your vote.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 06:18:18 AM
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David, I suggest that you and I might have different ideas as to what a 'modern' is. Until recently the 'cutoff date' used in Victoria has been 1980 for 'historics'. In NSW the 'cutoff date' is now 1990, I believe.
My view is that any racing machine over 10 years old is 'historic'.
If you have a look at the Yamaha TZ's on the following link, you'll see that half the models are no longer competitive. They are however, worth preserving for posterity.
You must be logged in to see this link.
If anyone is interested I know where there is a very nice 1988 TZ250, the one with the back to front cylinders, going cheap. It's now 18 years old, it'll be in the next 'historic' category. It'll fit New Era 2 in NSW, or Period 6 in the Hartwell Club.
Note: When I started racing in 1967 my Triumph (ex Allan Greening) was 11 years old. When Derek Pickard and Peter Lord (Velocette Owner's club) started Historic racing in 1973, it was 17 Years old, and I was still racing it in Allpowers C Grade!
So what's a 'modern'? - Scott Webster's beautiful Moto Martin Kawasaki?
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 06:34:11 AM
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Incidentally, Your poll question was initially:
'Should Modern motorcycles be mixed with Historic motorcycle race meetings?'
You finally ended up asking about what should be covered on this site in the 3 questions at the end. That's two different topics!
Are you going to censor every post on your site to ensure there's no reference to 'moderns', and delete it if there is?
If you want to debate whether 'moderns' or BEARS or anything else, should run at the same meetings as 'historics' I suggest you should start another topic!!!!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 08:45:19 AM
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Alan, I look at every post on that is posted on this site and if I find a post about "moderns" I will remove the content until we have the results in about the use of "moderns" on this poll.
There is also a little icon that users are more than welcome to use to make a complaint about a particular post which I check daily, and if I find the complaint valid, will do something about it. I am sure that users will report anythingquote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Are you going to censor every post on your site to ensure there's no reference to 'moderns', and delete it if there is?
If you want to debate whether 'moderns' or BEARS or anything else, should run at the same meetings as 'historics' I suggest you should start another topic!!!!
Well obviously you do not understand what this topic is about with a comment like that. If they do not like "moderns" mixed on this site, and users have the right to reply to this topic as well, then it should be a clear indication, that they do not like "moderns" at meetings as it was disscussed back in late 2004 because of a particular race meeting then.
In other words, that is what this topic is about, mixing "moderns" with Classic/Post Classic and Historic motorcycle racing in Australia. Would you like it any clearer, or would you like me to go slower for you?
So far the voting is not looking good for the inclusion of "moderns" on this site, and before it is asked what the cutoff's are again by you Alan C, it is as defined in the GCR's, to which I do not beleive NSW follows for their cutoff date. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 09:14:11 AM
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David, How are 'cutoff dates' updated in the GCRs. How is the next 'era' started? Are you saying the PCRANSW is acting outside the General Competition Rules for non-championship meetings?
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 09:17:57 AM
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David, a couple of days ago you mentioned that you had 1000 'hits' per day, if I remember correctly. Why do you think the other 997 don't post to this forum?
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 10:42:28 AM
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Alan, your words not mine..quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Are you saying the PCRANSW is acting outside the General Competition Rules for non-championship meetings?
I was simply stating a fact that the "New Era" items that PCRANSW follow is not listed as Classic/Post Classic or Historic as defined by the GCR's. So do not try to twist words around.
Simply put as they like to know what is going on and they don't post on here, because they do not want to have personal attacks on them as some people do when asked the hard questions.quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
David, a couple of days ago you mentioned that you had 1000 'hits' per day, if I remember correctly. Why do you think the other 997 don't post to this forum?
This is why they do not get on here. I am getting users sign-up to the site and I know they are coming back and viewing the site.
You should also know with anything Classic/Post Classic or Historic they prefer to know what's going on and throwing a leg over and racing rather than deal with people bitching, complaining and making statements that can not be backed up.
I also admit that I give back more than I should to the people bitching, complaining and making statements that can not be backed up, but after all, they deserve it.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 5:27:54 PM
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David, I appreciate what you did in setting up this site, and I believe it still serves a valuable purpose for historic racing, that's why I persevere with it.
I'm not really into the negative stuff.
I would say only one or two things about the 2004 Championships at Winton:
We didn't seek to get the meeting, it was offered due to circumstances in another club.
The fact that the BEARS ran, meant that the meeting showed a modest profit, this saved my butt, and meant further support for the Winton Motorcycle Club from Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd, and Benalla Auto Club.
I copped a few digs, however the members are used to dealing with stroppy car racers etc, so there wasn't much flack, and we motorcyclists are still racing at Winton, and welcome.
As I've said previously the racing was excellent, and I only wish I could have got it onto TV. The garbage that the guys kicked up before the meeting sort of stopped that effort in its tracks.
I have great hopes for the MX track. It's about running road race meetings in particular using the funds raised from the dirt events, after we've paid off our debts.
You will note that there are not many clubs running road races these days, however we might be able to run a few.
If you ever join the club, you will be entitled to view the books. There isn't big money to be made running race meetings, that's why John Tetley at Queensland Race way runs 'fun days' in preference. With fun days you don't have to pay all the fees to 'controlling bodies'.
As I mentioned the Race Practice day we just ran was a success, however the return to the club was pretty small in comparison to the expenditure we've made over the last 3 years, to build the circuit.
It's been made very clear to us (members) that the circuit must be run on a commercially viable basis!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 11:35:57 PM
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Alan Your memory is getting pretty selective, maybe you should elaborate on the circumstances around your club getting the 2004 Championships so someone like myself can put the record straight. The worst thing that has happened in Historic Racing in the last ten years has been the allocation of the National Championships to Winton so I suggest you let it die instead of continually trying to defend the debacle that it was.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 03:56:24 AM
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Alan, I certainly won't elaborate on the 2004 Historic Championships at Winton. The issues and behaviour surrounding it were a disgrace, and some of them were alluded to by the letter from Graeme Noonan in Classic Racer. He said a few things I would not have said, that doesn't make them untrue.
If you want to comment further, I suggest you read his letter and try to refute what he said.
Personally, I didn't need those championships in my life, they endangered the very existence of our local club!
If you feel so strongly about the 2004 Championships, I suggest you ring Mick Ronke at Winton and discuss the matter. I'm sure he'll set you straight.
(03)5766 4235
I'm not in a position to discuss the business of Winton Motor Raceway Pty Ltd - HE IS!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 4:16:52 PM
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Firstly, David I support you stance on this issue.
Secondly, the GCR's clearly state the distinction between Historic and Moderns.
Thirdly, any club can choose to run what ever mix of bikes they want. I can say from personell experience that the inclusion of the BEARS at the Vic Titles was opposed by some at the time, but most have accepted they are a good fit today. I can also add that Historic racers in Vic feel they would miss out on rides if "moderns" were included beyond the current mix.
Finally, there is plenty of race meetings for "moderns" anyway with club and open events, I dont see a need to include them. In fact if you mix them up too much you may find both groups feel agrieved. I am aware that Hartwell get a small smattering of Historics at their club days that dont turn up elsewhere, but that is because of the club vs National licence issue which has now been addressed admirabley by MA, if you have held an open licence in the last 10 years. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 7:15:48 PM
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Thanks John. I actually like the BEARS, especially 'heritage BEARS' in which every single bike is historic. I made a comment to Bob Brown about those stinking Ducatis to the effect that even the most modern could be considered to be 'historic'. I think they still have all the problems, and they are built like 'real' motorcycles.
I don't believe anyone could seriously consider them 'modern'.
(He said I should let the owners hear that comment. I really believe a 999 is the best thing since sliced bread. I certainly can't afford one, and I firmly resist buying one.)
Personally I wouldn't have a problem racing a 750cc Seeley Commando against them in a 750cc capacity class. It'd be a lot more pleasant than getting blown to the weeds by Rex and the boys!
I understand where David is coming from, perhaps we should just do as the New Zealanders do, and ban Jap bikes (except for my TZ350G and my RD250LC).
I wouldn't be happy to see R1 Yamahas or Fireblades racing at a primarily historic meeting, however it might be necessary some time to get a ride!
As you've said, it's really up to the promoters, and we need a few more of them.
I've actually been to HMRAV meetings where the BEARS have run, and it appears to be a very happy combination. Do you also run Motolite and Superlite races at historic meetings?
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
P.S. The combined P3 and P4/P5 two stroke races you ran at Broadford were absolute boomers, and something to be developed. They really made feel like getting the TZ out!
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 5:27:57 PM
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I am glad you can see where I coming from on this, Alan C. It is up to the promoters if they wish to run moderns, but this is not the site to have moderns promoted. There is a small indication already in the poll that this site should not promote moderns on here which I agree.
I will be promoting clubs that support historic meetings including the club that I am about to sign up to as a full member and go from there. I have been advised that they have quite a few memebers that are in to the historic scene.
If users would like to have there club promoted, then simply send me a private message (link in the members menu), with what your club has to offer. This is to help the clubs gain new membership with a full on promotion of clubs that support Classic/Post Classic & Historic racing in Australia.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 8:12:21 PM
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David, the Historic MX meeting for which I've requested 'expressions of interest', may involve 'moderns' in support races. It will be up to the historic racers to say what they want from the meeting, and how it can be made commercially viable.
Anyone who wants an Historic MX ride on the new track should have a talk to Matthew Ronke on (03) 5766 4235. You can 'write your own ticket' on this one!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell |
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racer7
Level 2 Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 9:18:51 PM
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"I have been asked if I would allow the promotion of modern motorcycle racing on this site"
The question is fairly simple.
There are a few 'Modern" sites, such as MCN or Formula Extreme, and the Hartwell Site, TMCC site etc.
I voted that this site remain for OLD bikes, Historics as per the Manual of Motor Cycle Sport (aka GCR's)
Don't like old, go elsewhere for goodness sake! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 12:33:28 PM
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Alan C asked "Do you also run Motolite and Superlite races at [HMRAV] historic meetings?"
Currently we dont, partly because they are really not very "old" and partly becasue there are not many in Vic. I personally have asked around to consider them but there rules are so open there are issues of eligibility within their own grouping.
I dont know how they would either be accepted or actually enter if ever invited. Perhaps they need to approach promoting clubs, ie HMRAV in Vic and PCRA in NSW and put a case up.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 6:30:13 PM
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John, You've said Motolite and Superlite are generally 'not very old'. I hate to show my ignorance, but could you please define a 'modern bike' for me. When does a bike fit into the idea of 'historic'?
How about a 1988 TZ 250, is that 'historic', or a 1983 GPZ900, how about that? What about Wally Campbell's 1983 Castrol 6 Hour winning Honda RC30, is that worth preserving or should he sell it to some young kid for a paddock bike?
He certainly can't race it under the rules in Victoria. Is it ever going to be 'historic'? If some people have their way it'll always be categorised as a 'modern' sh*t heap, and will never race again!!
If I bought an ex-Eddie Lawson Yamaha 500cc two stroke GP bike, could I sometimes ride it in a demo at one of your meetings? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 08:53:43 AM
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John, When Derek Pickard and Peter Lord started this historic racing thing, they sold the idea on the basis that it would be a way of preserving bikes of 'historic importance'.
It hasn't turned out that way. Every old bike is developed using technology from 30 years later. We see Manx Nortons with Honda double sided brakes, Mk 2 amals - all witnin the rules.
In addition racing bikes which have been obsolete for 20 years cannot get a start. In any case most of the bikes which are racing in historic events were'nt ever even production racers. THey have no 'historic value' except as restored road bikes.
So what are you guys trying to do with this
'no moderns' crap?
WHAT IS A 'MODERN'?? WHEN DOES 'HISTORIC' START? PCRANSW doesn't seem to have this problem!!!!!!!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 09:32:13 AM
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| Why keep ur head in the sand .I see Hartwell MC run P6 class racing,anything over 10 years old.why arn't bikes <1962 classic and >1963 <1972 post classic even if they are not ur Manx/ G50/7R/G45 0r TZ TR wot ever ..I belive there is still a need for these bike to have their own meetings without moderns |
Allan Greening |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 11:16:49 PM
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MA rules staet currently 1980 is the cut off for Historic.
Blokes with 1988 based machines can race at club level or perhaps make an approach to either MV, MA or directly to the Historic Commissioners or even the promoting clubs with a proposal.
If they dont make a move we will never know whether they are out there anyway.
But speaking of the 'xxxx lites" have you seen them laterly, they have a lot of very late model gear on them.
But its up to them to make a plea. You have witnessed my failed attempts to drag solos to the track, I am not going to get caught again but will always encourage any group to make the approach first. They will always get a hearing. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 07:30:45 AM
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Ma may call itself a 'controlling body', it's still the UNION. Since when has it had the right to dictate what a promoter can or cannot run at his meeting?
The rules in the MA rule book are General Competition Rules, and the ones relating to historic bikes are about CHAMPIONSHIPS, not your average meeting. For one thing the clubs, like Hartwell have got the smarts to realise that historic bikes after 1980 have some (heritage) significance and attract more of the young blokes to our sport.
Let's change the definition of 'moderns' to include anything less than ten years old?
I'd agree that those bikes should be excluded from historic races and from discussion on this forum, until they come of age, and/or are effectively obsolete from 'modern' road racing!
New Era 1 & 2, and Period 6 SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED, NOT STYMIED!!!
I suggest we are in danger of losing all unmodifed 80s TZs, if we continue to exclude anything past 1980. These days it's difficult to get a decent 70s TZ, for the very reason, we left racing them in historics TOO LATE!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 07:44:08 AM
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John, your comment about the guys with 1988 TZs approaching MA, and getting themselves into the GCRs (champioship classes) is a bit strange. In the past HMRAV has had a declared policy of only catering for 'the bikes already racing'. It's apretty short sightewd approach.
I might mention two bikes that never race - one is a P4 Rob North Rocket 3, whose owner rides a BSA twin in P3 (one of your club members). The other is a MK2 Seeley with a G50 Matchless motor. It came from Tassie, and broke a crank at it's first meeting at Winton in about 1974.
Why do you think those two bikes never appear at meetings, they're still around?
If you look in Classic Racer magazine you'll see ads for several Seeley G50s in every issue. Why are they racing in the UK, but NOT in Australia?
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 07:45:36 AM
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Alan C, face it, going on the responses, you are the only one who is wanting to push "moderns" on this site and the ones who have voted so far are mostly going "NO" to allowing moderns being posted on here.
If a promoter wishes to run moderns at their historic meeting, then is it a true historic meeting, I would suggest no.
As these are clearly defined, then this is what I am sticking with: Post Classic (1963-1972), Classic (pre 1963), Forgotten Era (1973 – 1980) which make up Historic racing in Australia. Unless there is a dramatic change to extend the date for historics past these dates, then they simply are not able to be posted on this site. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 07:52:46 AM
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Allan, as far as Hartwell Club running P6 is concerned. As you know I was a Hartwell member for about 15 years. In that time I had several encounters with Wes Brown about what he ran in events. Another friend of mine got into arguing with him in a much bigger way. The same guy said 'if anyone wants to race in Victoria thay should join Hartwell', and I strongly agreed with him.
I don't know what the guys are like there these days, however they still appear to be a progressive and motivated club. Running Period 6 for bikes over 10 years old shows a real big dose of common sense amongst their meeting organisers.
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 7:36:42 PM
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David, Are you saying that you will not permit discussion about New Era 1 and New Era 2 and Period 6 on this site? You mentioned a 'dramatic move' needed to extend the cutoff date , before you will extend the scope of this site! How will you stop the members of the PCRANSW and Hartwell club members, from riding bikes up to 1990 in historic races? There are plenty of them doing it!!
I cannot see your problem!
I never at any time suggested people should ride R1s or 2006 Ducatis at historic meetings, so what are you calling 'moderns'?
Perhaps you need another discussion with David White, and agree on what a 'modern' is?
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 8:21:57 PM
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And you expect me to take notice of David White after the previous meetings that I have had with him. you must be fully joking.quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Perhaps you need another discussion with David White, and agree on what a 'modern' is?
We have been down that track before, and all David White did was deliver nothing that he said he would in all the meetings I attended and Allan G attended.
MA have even taken the link to this site down from their links page, and do not respond when I ask why they did it. Very mature company in my books. No reason was given, just removed from the links page.
Why would MA listen to you when you have a go at them with insults, as this shows:quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Ma may call itself a 'controlling body', it's still the UNION. Since when has it had the right to dictate what a promoter can or cannot run at his meeting?
Either way unless the New Era 1 and New Era 2 and Period 6 are classed as historic, then I do not beleive that they should be advertised on this site, but again that is my personal opinion, and by the looks of it with the voting, it should not be as well.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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beezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
5 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 2:21:00 PM
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| Hi all the disscussion about what is eligiable to race is fine if the grids are full, but the last 10 years the number of entrants has diminished. Try anything to improve the sport and get more competeing, even if new classes have to be invented e.g. a specials class or non log book class. Main thing is make it fiancially viable again [reduce fees ect.] And try not to disscourage anyone from having a go. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 2:24:36 PM
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I was just up at the Hartwell Club day at Winton. Saw a few 'historic' bikes there. One guy had a beautiful Kawasaki GPZ900 racer. What year were they made? Could I race one in Period 5?
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 3:03:49 PM
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John and David, I've been offered the following bike for $4000, is it eligible for Period 5? It has exactly the same frame and motor as Stuart Loly's bike (GSX1100). I've also been offered a McIntosh Suzuki with the same motor for $10000, should I buy that? Is it eligible for Period 5?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 3:20:21 PM
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John and David,
I saw this bike at the Hartwell Club day at Winton. Should I go to the organisers and complain that it's too modern?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
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