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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 07:25:39 AM
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Strike me bloody pink!
Glen 20 you are unbelievable, you have more terms and conditions for us to witness your presence at the track than Brumby has in the transport contracts and they were no good.
I suggest you stop talking and come down with the bike or as they say at the wedding, " for ever hold your peace". |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 07:44:39 AM
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| How many ways do I have to say I'm not interested in racing in 'period' races? I'm certain you are NOT LISTENING! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 07:56:08 AM
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| John When you manage to separate the bikes into two groups and run capacity classes for both, I'll be back racing. It's senseless until you separate the fourstroke twins and singles from the twostrokes and multis. In just about every 'period' there are bikes which completely outclass the rest. Listen to John Feakes he's on the right trail. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 09:46:03 AM
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| Jon, You asked a question and you got an answer!! Is HMRAV going to change their format for race meetings! I don't think so, and I don't know why you asked the question in the first place? If you want people back racing, GET RID OF PERIODS. They are dangerous unfair and unrepresentative of anything that happened in history! |
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keith roberts
Level 1 Member
Victoria
14 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 12:31:27 PM
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am i missing something? glen wants to race his 350 gold star, but he would only race it against 4-strokes from the 30's, 40's or 50's, but at the same time he refuses to race in a 'period' class. isn't the grouping of bikes by age what the current periods try to achieve? how many 2-strokes are there being raced in p2 and p3, and why should he want to ban them? in the late 50's as an impecunious uni student i was part of a group of financially-challenged bike riders who made a race bike from an ex-ww2 liferaft engine and some lengths of tubing( bent by the local push-bike maker) plus assorted bits from various sheds and wreckers. it was a 350 2-stroke twin (rca) and it kept us broke but involved for a number of years. why should such a bike be banned from racing against the bikes it was built to compete against ?it doesn't matter what bikes are banned, there will always be riders who will be better than you, that's why it is called racing, and why there can not be a winner unless there are others in the same event. no-one should consider themselves a loser in historic racing, just being out there and enjoying yourself, particularly at 60 or 70 years of age, is a win in itself. stop trying to make the rules so that you can "win" by banning better riders and/or better bikes.
as an aside, while we are all e-mailing away about increasing rider numbers, has anyone actually heard from a retired rider as to why he has stopped racing, or from a stoner-wannabee why he wants to race an historic bike? i have not seen anything on this forum site to suggest that either of these groups is sufficiently keen on the matter to even give us any suggestions. are we flogging the proverbial dead horse? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 2:02:46 PM
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Keith, it gives us something to do and staves off the dreaded old timers disease.
I am one of those who retired young and hopefully will be back before I die.
Money was always the major problem and then marriage and children shifted the priorities.
Now money is still a problem but I hope to find out if I can remember how to ride in the near future. I might add that I have no ambition to win races. Just to have a ride with mates and go home in one piece would be enough to keep me happy.
I think that one of the problems we have with 2 strokes is that they are able to use "out of period" technology that gives them a major advantage over 4 strokes.
They have the last 45 years to fish in for knowledge, 45 years of 2 stroke dominance.
This is something that the 4 strokes do not have access to.
Regardless of when a 4 stroke {pre 1980) was made it still really only has pre 1965 technology to call on as all race bike development was on 2 strokes after then.
This, in my mind, makes it essentially period 3 technology, limited to somewhere in the region of 120 b.h.p. per litre.
I should qualify this by saying that the big capacity 4 cylinder bikes have enjoyed more factory help than those of 500cc and under, thanks to the advent of superbike racing.
Anyway, enough prattle from me.
Some ideas have come out of all this and hopefully we will get some benefit from it all. Time will tell.
Cheers, John
Let's all be nice to each other, we're supposed to be in it for pleasure.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 6:35:00 PM
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| In asking his question,John wanted answers - he's got at least ONE! Wot you expect is for guys to risk something which is largely irreplacable , racing cheaters.the junior class in P3 is these days dominated by a two stroke. In real life that didn't happen until the midsixties! -not the mid fifties! A little cheating goes a long way but I don't doubt that two stroke fits the idiot rules. Then ask the question - why would anyone bring a good 350 Manx or Goldie out and race it against a two stroke with 90s technology? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2009 : 7:21:27 PM
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| Some people are happy to race against themselves andsee how they go from meeting to meeting. There is only one first place so not everybody can have it. From what I hear most racers in fact race against their previuos times. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2009 : 10:02:40 AM
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Personally I envy anyone who can afford to race a Manx or 7R/G50.
I would if I could.
The reality of life is that I am happy to be building my modest CB125.
I fully expect to be hotly contesting last place and I also expect to be having fun with a great bunch of guys with the same interest in riding old bikes.
Those who are only interested in winning do not inhabit my planet. I think it would be a lonely place where they come from.
So, I offer an open invitation to anyone interested in joining in.
If you've got around $4,000 to spend on yourself we can get you on the track.
Will you join us?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2009 : 10:50:40 AM
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John, while you are expected to race against two strokes in 'period' races, you will always be in the race for last place. It's unfair to expect people like you to spend a bomb getting something as difficult as a four stroke honda going quickly, then come and get blown to the weeds by some two strokes which have cost very little to get going very fast. Where is the VALUE FOR MONEY in that???????? IT would be much more sensible and FAIRER to class your Honda as a 'TT' machine and race it against other 125cc FOURSTROKE bikes with a cutoff date of 1982 regardless of 'period'! That approach might actually get people interested in finding some later fourstroke 125s. THEN YOU'D BE RACING FOR FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!~!
Let's be honest the bike that dominates your 125 class is probably a H100 Honda. Why don't you buy one? Get with the strength!!!! |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2009 : 11:12:35 AM
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Life is unfair everyday if you look for it.
Many people take the good with the bad and go and enjoy themselves, its the glass is 1/2 full syndrome |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2009 : 08:38:32 AM
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When I first started to look for a 125 I was offered an MTR Honda with some spares for $2,000. Maybe I should have taken it.
However, I did not want to be involved with a finicky 2 stroke with the need for a constant supply of pistons.
I have long believed that if you give a fast bike to a slow rider he will immediately turn it into a slow bike.
I expect to be the slowest of the slow. Anything better than last place will be a win to me.
I am hoping for 4 stroke reliability and will not spend money on development until I am faster than the bike.
When this little jigger fires up I will be on the road to happiness.
My glass will be overflowing!
Why don't you join me?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 27 Aug 2009 08:40:23 AM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2009 : 08:55:13 AM
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| I really believe some of you blokes are not prepared to listen. Anyway the people you need to talk to, are NOT ON THIS FORUM!! People like Peter Anderson from Shepparton who took a immaculate 450 Ducati to Winton and put his son on it. It ran in a P4 unlimited race and ended up in about 99th place. He's told me it has shagged a piston, and he can't afford a new one. The truth is that if he hadn't got his backside knocked in by trying to race Rex and the TRex clones, he'd probably find the money and be back racing. There is NO REAL REASON a 450 Ducati couldn't race against the period 3 500s!!! If that had happened he'd probably still be racing!!! I suggest we should LOSE THE FIXATION ABOUT RACING IN PERIODS!!!!!~ |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2009 : 09:44:51 AM
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| John Daley, here is a constructive idea you might like to discuss with Keith Campbell. Wot say we drop the period 3 500 race at the next Southern Classic and replace it with the Senior Australian Historic TT ? The new race could cater for twin and single cylinder fourstroke bikes of capacities over 250cc, up to 500cc, of ANY PERIOD? That way we'd end up with a race which includes the SR500 Yamahas, the Seeley G50, any 350 and 450 Ducatis and any other P4 and P5 fourstrokes of the correct capacity and TYPE - NO TWO STROKES OR MULTIS!!. Cutoff date 1982, and normal GCRs about fuel to apply. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2009 : 10:34:03 AM
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That idea has merit except for the fact we have just settled a series of discussions to separate the 500 and 350 Southern Classic's.
The idea of an extra race as per your ideas has merit and I will seek further input and response about where and when we might run it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2009 : 06:39:09 AM
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| An Australian Historic TT should embrace all five capacity classes. In the olden days the Australian TT was always run over 6 laps of the host circuit regardless of which one it was including Bathurst! It's a part of our motorcycle racing heritage which we should cultivate. You'll note that by getting rid of the need to run in 'periods' we'll have quite a few beneficial effects. The two guys who race the SR500s against the TZs in P5 will be racing Keith Campbell, as will the guy with the Seeley G50 who usually races Rex and the CB750/1100 clones! So for the first time they'll get a FAIR GO! Also Doug Gorrie with that B40 BSA would get a decent ride for once! As far as mixing drum braked with disc braked bikes, we did that in the late sixties, and we just took a bit of care that we didn't deck anyone! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2009 : 10:45:30 AM
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| I reckom a senior TT race would be very interesting. I wonder if Keith Campbell would hold off the immaculate Seeley G50, the Molnar Manx, and the two guys on SR500s? My dough would be on the two SR500s, those blokes have been racing TZ350s, and must have really got their backsides into gear! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2009 : 9:24:23 PM
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Al you are confusing us all. One minute you dont want 2 strokes then you are talking about TZ750, then you want a 350 /500 TT and now you want one for all classes.
I am muddled up with the alternatives and variations of all the conumdrums you have suggestted.
Personally I think we should have a single solo race and a single sidecar race. All place getters from both 2 and 3 wheel divisons then race off for the single overall winner.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2009 : 11:43:21 AM
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Hi All,
To keep you in the loop - As promised, I have made a submission to my club (HMRAV) for a mentoring concept. We'll see how it goes.
Cheers,
Ben. |
Try Everything |
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racer7
Level 2 Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2009 : 08:49:25 AM
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Quite a few very good ideas going on here
One way (perhaps?) of increasing Grid size, is to have more Competitors.
To have more Competitors, we need more machines. So where does one obtain a machine? Hundreds of copies of Motorcycle Trader, Just Bikes etc, turn up very few 'Old' race bikes. And yes, I know there is a TA125 for sale at $5500 in the Just Bikes. It's like a Secret Society. Just why this Website isn't filled with Ads selling unused 'Old' race bikes is a question I can't answer. I don't want a GT750 crank or a Nighthawk! Presently, a 'racer' with who I have an acquaintance with, allegedly 'knows where there is an Aermacchi 350, and a Bultaco 250, in a shed 'somewhere'. He can't/ won't buy them himself, but damned if he'll tell me where they are. God forbid I buy them and make a Dollar perhaps or have some fun So IMO, there are many 'elder Statesmen' riding modern bikes at track days, or competing, when they could/ should be here with us But for the grace and kindness of a very skilled welder/ machinist mate, I'd be a 'modern' rider myself.
racer7 |
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jvdairlie
Level 2 Member
Queensland
48 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 08:42:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by racer7
Quite a few very good ideas going on here
One way (perhaps?) of increasing Grid size, is to have more Competitors.
To have more Competitors, we need more machines. So where does one obtain a machine? Hundreds of copies of Motorcycle Trader, Just Bikes etc, turn up very few 'Old' race bikes. And yes, I know there is a TA125 for sale at $5500 in the Just Bikes. It's like a Secret Society. Just why this Website isn't filled with Ads selling unused 'Old' race bikes is a question I can't answer. I don't want a GT750 crank or a Nighthawk! Presently, a 'racer' with who I have an acquaintance with, allegedly 'knows where there is an Aermacchi 350, and a Bultaco 250, in a shed 'somewhere'. He can't/ won't buy them himself, but damned if he'll tell me where they are. God forbid I buy them and make a Dollar perhaps or have some fun So IMO, there are many 'elder Statesmen' riding modern bikes at track days, or competing, when they could/ should be here with usBut for the grace and kindness of a very skilled welder/ machinist mate, I'd be a 'modern' rider myself.
racer7
Come on Gerry - get that bike of yours out of the Shed!! |
Edited by - jvdairlie on 14 Dec 2009 12:02:42 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 10:15:02 AM
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| The privacy issue might only be a stumbling block if we let it. I understand that it depends on the reason information was given to the holder in the first place, whether it is a problem to pass it on. The lists of entrants and machines etc. was given to clubs for motorcycling purposes. If that information is used to further the sport, there probably wouldn't be a problem with the privacy laws. It'd be worth asking a solicitor. The information is important if we are to progress. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 10:25:51 AM
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John, I'm sorry if I've muddled you up with the twostroke/fourstroke thing. Basically I believe there should be two main groups in solo historic racing. They are:
TT - for fourstroke singles and twins
GP - for two strokes and multis
Then the races in which they compete should be assembled on the basis of the old capacity classes:
Ultralightweight (125cc)
Lightweight (250cc)
Junior (350cc)
Senior (500cc)
Formula 750 (750cc)
Unlimited
You end up with 12 classes for racing!
Forget about 'periods' except for championships! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 3:18:10 PM
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| If you ran the programme I suggested above at a one day meeting you could fit 24 solo and 4 sidecar races into 7 hours by keeping to a 15 minute limit per race. If the meeting was a two day one you could run 'period races' on the first day, and 'capacity races' on the second day. In the old days we used to be able to race in the next up capacity class. If you allowed that you should get packed grids for most races in the second day's racing. The only guys who might complain would be the ones with Unlimited bikes, they'd get half the rides of anyone with a smaller bike. |
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racer7
Level 2 Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 7:22:23 PM
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"Come on Gerry - get that bike of yours out of the Shed!!"
Ah...The Shed. It's more like Pandora's Box
Where did all these bits come from
I firmly believe the Classifieds on this site should have the Old 'non-raced' Race Bikes offered to potential racers. There must be dozens, if not hundreds, gathering dust? Somewhere. The CYB thing came out of a shed in the big red dust bowl of Western Qld. Having sent the 500 to the U.K. at the right price, all I have is a couple of 350's. That need a lot of 'lovin' I'm working on it! It's just too easy to push a button, and away the Super-Mono goes
So much to do, so little time..............
racer7 |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2009 : 09:30:04 AM
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| WHY are you selling a bke to the POMS, money is the root of all evil! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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racer7
Level 2 Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2009 : 5:30:36 PM
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Out of the blue, this unknown and uninvited POM guy arrived at my home. He said he'd heard I had a 500 race bike. He asked to see it. I showed him. He said can you start it. I did. He asked me how much I wanted. I said it wasn't for sale. He kept peeling $100 notes until I said...OK, take the bloody thing if you want it that bad
It was crated and sent to the UK for the TT Parade.
Would I do it again....sh*t yeah!
Money is the root of all evil, so I pray before I spend
Racer |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 06:25:20 AM
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OK I have added 2 areas to the Classified area after seeing this:
quote:
Originally posted by racer7
I firmly believe the Classifieds on this site should have the Old 'non-raced' Race Bikes offered to potential racers.
Basically there is an area forsale and a wanted area which are both for Old Race Bikes.
Lets see if anyone starts to sell their old bike to get it on the track or see who is looking to get out on the the track.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Duncan_G50
Level 1 Member
New South Wales
3 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2010 : 12:41:42 PM
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This is a very interesting thread... I haven't seen any comments from newbies, so here's my $0.02 worth. In a nutshell: "it all seems so hard". Obtaining the Logbook, club membership, expensive race licence and race entry seems daunting for someone who simply wants to try racing. I'm not suggesting that it should be a "free for all", but perhaps something along the lines of the 'parades' that they do overseas would tempt new-comers to get involved? Fwiw, here's my saga:
In 1977 I bought a road-registered (!) Matchless G50 for $100. For a few years, it was my sole means of transport. Unfortunately it wasn't 100% - it came with a '52 Triumph 650 Thunderbird motor. The conversion was professionally done – kickstart pinion on the box, Amal GP's, dual plugs head, 180 deg crank, high comp pistons, Dural backing plates, alternator, etc. After a while I decided that the old girl was high maintenance, so bought a CB750 as a commuter. The bike was dismantled for storage, and since then there have been 2 overseas and several interstate moves. Bits got lost and rusty! Two years ago I decided to start on the long-overdue rebuild. The road trim was removed, and it's a racer again. I'm proud to say that everything has been done – the bike looks immaculate. ($3,000+ spent to date – please don't tell Mother Superior...) It's 95% finished - only rolling the megaphones (yes, I do things the hard way) is still to be done, and I'll then apply for the dreaded Logbook. Because it's not completely original, and because the motor has been modified, I'm half expecting a knock-back. As I understand, it should be P3 Unlimited? Where would I stand without a Logbook? My big dream of racing will be a goner, and the bike may as well be another display model.
For someone wanting to "dip a toe", the requirements seem excessive. I'm sure there are others in my position, and it would be great if the rules could be relaxed slightly to tempt beginners. |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2010 : 2:22:57 PM
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First of all I need to remind you that nobody has found the stone that says racing must be economical.
IMO complaining about the cost of racing is a fruitless as complaining about the weather.
Secondly, call MA and ask about the rules, log books are not hard to get, the rules are relaxed enough to work for about 2000 applicants and if loosened any more would open things for cheating.
They are not complex rules, stay within the period for bits, talk with MA before you spend more and I am confident you will be OK.
If you played basket ball it would cost you more than an MA race licence, so get real. |
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