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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2003 : 4:10:46 PM
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Keith Thanks for the feed back earlier. I can say I was basically responsible for the original program with feedback from others. We were experimenting with events. The lack of races was an oversight caused when cutting and pasting the program. BUT I can say, as discussed on the phone a few minutes ago, we have revamped the whole program, everybody has at least 3 rides per day and the classes have been separated in a manner that you can ride all your bikes. Just dont let a sidecar rider near the program again. But I can say your feedback about post classic buckets was new to us and the extension of the push rod down to 500 may be considered, but I can remember we were trying to draw back specifically 750cc machine that are not represneted anywhere in large numbers now.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 10:07:12 AM
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john am on a working comp. now,yay.about buckets or bears or period 5 or anything with 2 or 3 wheels engine etc.etc.i firmly believe that the state of racing in oz is bordering on a purple patch of resurgance provided that the rules and costs do not continue to change or rise too much.obviously log books have created the most "suffering" for seemingly many a racer.now that the keenest majority of riders have obtained their log books one would assume the pressure at m.a.is now off.in upcoming newsletters perhaps an appeal to "all of those" who have a machine in the shed could consult with those who have "overcome" the dramas associated with numerous applications and finally succeeding.the cost of a log book is not really prohibititive $20.anyone interested only has to talk to anyone at a meeting with a similar type of bike ask to see their log book and discuss with the owner how to go about the process and would benefit from the "repeat applier's"experience.i am sure there are possibilities here for more bikes to hit the tracks.the licence fees are another matter all together.i am not qualified to comment here but i recall all of the issues being discussed for 1 event licences.is there such a thing available at any level of club racing? i recall at moto-x meetings a few years ago one could enter clubbies with just such a thing at reasonable cost.the whole scene at meetings of late has been quite upbeat in my opinion.the addition of promoting camping to all (spectators)has got legs with the addition of the "band" gives spectators the additional reason to perhaps stay and meet riders after the days racing and get involved in a relaxed atmosphere ( beer and food available )whilst discussing their exploits on m/cycles etc which may just be another great way of getting a bike out of the shed that no one knew about.this is all just food for thought.
With regard to buckets they came last year to the titles in really good numbers with some really interesting bikes that turned on great racing with capacity grids made up of S.A, N.S.W, A.C.T. RIDERS. They were a great bunch who may be interested in another invitation to future meets where numbers have to be made up.
anyway i'll see you at broadford cheers keith |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 03:43:59 AM
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John, How about expanding the pushrod class to be from 350cc to 850cc or 900cc. It would then include 500cc AMC and Norton, BSA etc, 650 and 750 Triumphs and 850 Nortons and 883 Harleys. I don't know how fast the sportsters go, but an 850cc Norton with Karel Morlang aboard is only slighly faster than most 750cc Triumphs, and there are some Triumphs about over 750cc anyway.
We could get a much bigger field, however it would depend on how the guys feel about racing the Harleys. I'm really glad to see you promoting this class. I think it will be really great,in whichever form it ends up in. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 03:47:46 AM
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| Keith, You can get a single event licence for any club event, and I believe, the Interclub. It's a matter of being a member of an appropriate club. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 08:28:10 AM
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| I am trying to remember why we set it at 600 -750cc. It may have been because we were not seeing these machines at the track at all. But lets keep an open mind and get the entires for the big end of town expanding, and then use proof of that growth to expand it again. I cant help musing about the fact that until we started the concept there was silence. Now we have it happenning, the requests are coming in to alterit. Out of interest I guess most earlier bikes were pushrods anyway, and do they have races to compete in now? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 8:17:51 PM
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John, I don't think the Harley Sportsters have anywhere to run now that their special class has effectively ended. (I might be wrong about this). My 850cc Seeley Commando can't run anywhere without meeting Rex or the big Triumph Triple from Sydney, or the big Laverda. It's not really competitive in any Historic race unless I cheat and call it a 750. It might go a little bit faster than a 750 pushrod, but probably it depends a lot on the rider. The Harleys would probably be a little bit faster too. The OHC Jap stuff craps all over these old pushrod motors, especially when it's made bigger.
I wouldn't have a problem racing against 883 Sportster Harleys, but I think Rex will always make me look silly.
Encouraging 750cc Triumphs and BSAs should be the objective, perhaps we could set a 750cc capacity limit for pushrod triples, and 900cc for pushrod twins.
I'm sorry to be suggesting changes at this early stage, but that's what they are - just suggestions.
I'm really hopeful this class gets going, it's getting me a bit enthused.
Incidently I think it's only the upper capacity limits that are important for the class, and the fact that it is for pushrod motors. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 11:33:09 PM
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| Lets wait and see how it goes, then we will know if the idea was successful or not. We did try the harleys but they really were not interested and we felt the range [ 600 - 750cc] ultimately chosen were the "Lost Treasures" if a sidecar rider can speak like that. I can say prior to the first outing of the event I had a call asking how far past the 750cc limit could somebody go. I played dumband suggetted 750cc surely ment 750 cc not 1200. he was not happy because he wanted to win. Are all solo riders that bad?? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 10:14:42 AM
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| i believe thers is merit in the pushrod class up to 750cc which gives these bikes a category without having to compete with the hondas etc as mentioned.what cc are the harleys?if 750 there must be quite a few of them languishing about as i remember the racing of only a few years ago with 20 -30 starters.would an up to 750 and over 750 class run together in races encourage some of those riders to dust off all those pushrod bikes out there? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 1:59:34 PM
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| I understand most 750cc Harley racers are 1200cc now, is that possible and still look ok or would it be 850cc. Cant you tell the knowledge Sidecar gentleman have about their engine stands! They all look the same anyway!!! But I have also heard they are way out of the period we are talking about. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 14 Nov 2003 2:20:23 PM |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 7:53:24 PM
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The post 80 Sporties were 883, then 1000, and I believe 1200. The pre 80 iron sporties were 750cc. I wouldn't mind riding my 850 Norton in a separate pushrod class, but run together with the under 750s - separate trophies?
There was actually a Harley racer (XR750) which had the post80 crankcases in 1972 - Don Emde brought one out to Calder back then. The later 883 sporty would be a bit slower than the XR750.
I reckon anyone with a big quid who wanted to win the 750cc pushrod class,might build an XR750 replica, and good luck to them too. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 07:59:34 AM
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| Alan, you may have missed the point of the push rod class event. Its to provide racing for machines not normally racing now. Its for fun, its not a special event for big buck bangers. BBB would probally ruin the evnt because nobody wants to get blow away. Let the BBB machines enter the Heritage BEARS and compete equally. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 7:32:07 PM
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John, Congratulations on your efforts to get the pushrod class going. I believe you have just done the most progressive thing in historic racing for years. Just the fact that the class caters for pushrod twins and singles is a big equaliser. Even the guys who go and buy nourish 750 twins, don't get that much speed advantage. The big bucks only buy reliability in this class. It's when you start bringing triples and fours, OHC and two strokes into the scene that the inequalities with the old pushrod twins and singles appear.
For a short time in the sixties, only a few A graders had TD1C Yams (guys like Alan Osbourne) and the jap fours hadn't appeared. That's when you could get out your bonnies (as Jeff Curley, Les Ayton, and Keith Ashmore, and Blakey did) and have a good go. Manxes and G50s were still competitive. Effectively your new class recreates this era (without the production racers of course). If I have to I'll do something to reduce the capacity of my bike to get into the class.
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Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 7:42:37 PM
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| John, I believe the fastest bike which could run in the pushrod class is Alan Lander's Triumph. It has a nourish shaft, and top end. Doesn't matter how much you spend on a 750 pushrod bike it won't go any faster than that, unless it's a triple, and even then, if it's a 750 a good bonnie will beat it. As I said the class appears very fair to me. The 'big bucks boys' will be stuffed with this class, it will all depend on how well you can ride! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 9:21:24 PM
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| But hang on Al, wernt you pushing for big bucks to be spent a couple of entries ago. Or has my elequent explanation cleared the air. Still, we need machines to front. I am aware a few extra have turned up but 10 or so extra would justify the concept staying on the books. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2003 : 9:28:07 PM
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If someone wants to spend big bucks and make an XR750 Harley, I'd love to see it racing. I'd also like to see the 'bonnie boys ' back again. As I said, I don't think 'big bucks' will make a diffence to competitiveness in this class. They will however improve the spectacle, and make the class more attractive to spectators.
If you can run a class with Bonnies, BSA Rockets, Norton Commando, and Atlases, and also get a few smaller Harleys, I believe you'll really have a good competitive class. The racing will be close, and that's what pulls the crowd and the competitors. The reason I mentioned Harleys, is that's what most people think motorcycles are! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2003 : 10:58:48 PM
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| Alan, realistically the Harleys are a waste of time chasing. The other bikes mentioned and BMW's are what we had in mind when the beer was flowing. I dont agree with your comment about Big bucks making it interesting by improving the spectacle, all we need is good solid machines entering the event consistantly. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 8:30:01 PM
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John, do you really believe a 750 converted Harley Sportster would be faster than a 750 cc Commando? I don't. Back in its day the Norton was certainly the fastest 750cc road bike available that wasn't a two stroke. Even standard H2 Kawasakis aren't that much quicker.
We had a new 750 Harley Sportster in 1962, and a decent 650 Bonnie would make it look stupid. It certainly sounded like it was going to do something, but didn't come up with the goods. A genuine XR750 wasn't a bad thing, but a Gus Kuhn Norton would annihilate it.
I still believe it doesn't matter whether you spend big bucks or not in this particular class. The Greg Van Scoy Seeley/Nourish 750 will probably be very competitive, but that's the only 'big bucks bike' I can think of which would be a bit faster than the rest. (It's just not the same a rex's 1100cc (?) superbike)
There are a lot of very good eligible bikes for this class e.g. Colin Thomas's 750cc Seeley Norton, Gyro's 750 BMW, and there's a heap of 750cc Triumphs about such as Alan Lander's Weslake/Triumph, and all the P3 Featherbeds. I reckon this class has more potential than any other for a long time.
You don't need 'big bucks' to beat Johnno on Gyro's bike, just big balls. He fixed them all up at Eastern Creek last year on an old 750cc Featherbed Norton (Rex included). |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 8:52:48 PM
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| I dont know anything about solo motorbikes, remember theyu are engine stoe frames for sidecars. the problem with the 750cc Harleys seemed to be that they were all 1200cc instead. But more importantly they were not interested in turning up so thats the situation. Remember we are setting races up for people to enter and get more machines to the circuit. We are not setting events so particular bikes can win them, unless we run a race for 4 cylindered white sidecar with a team of combined age 104years and blue gloves!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2003 : 1:03:31 PM
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| John, I've always been disappointed that the really good sidecars disappeared. The Dennis Skinner Laverda, The John O'Brien Konig, the Barry Marshall Kawasaki, the Orrie Salter BMW, the Denny McCormack four cylinder Kawasaki two stroke, The Craig Bros Vincent, the Craig Bros Manx, the Wes Brown Triumph, The Alex Corner Vincent. These bikes have all disappeared off the face of the earth, and to my mind they all had real historic value. I believe historic racing isn't just about riding old bikes. It's really nice to see the real thing sometimes. I reckon we've got to watch the eligibilty rules. If we continue to race just what suits modern technology, so we can cheat a bit, we're likely to ruin the whole game. I don't know what the answer is. Making everyone get log books and only ride bikes which actually existed in the periods, or faithful replicas (as the car guys do) would probably turn away the only remaining competitors. Perhaps we need to run a sort of 'authenticity concours' at each meeting? In my memory most of the old single cylinder sidecars were never competitive even in the fifties. A good triumph or Vincent usually crapped on them, but all the really good sidecars, where are they now? I'm not knocking the guys who actually get a bike onto the track (even if it's a horrible old single sidecar) but I think we have to do something positive to find all the remaining good (actually competitive and genuine) sidecars and preserve them. In particular Dennis Skinner's Laverda should be found and restored to as-raced condition. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Former Member
deleted
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26 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2003 : 9:28:52 PM
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Dennis Skinner used to run a motorcycle shop next to Mordi Surf in Mordialloc and I used to surf in those days. These days, I'm almost 50, race classic motocross sidecars and would be interested in this ongoing story.
Tony |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2003 : 5:06:02 PM
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Dennis is now in Queensland. I don't know who ended up with his bikes. I seem to remember he raced a Vincent on speedway as well as the 3 cyl. Laverda on road races.
The Laverda was revolutionary when it appeared in the late seventies. Well worth getting hold of and restoring. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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