| Author |
 Topic  |
| |
Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2004 : 5:20:52 PM
|
What is C Class Motorcycle Racing?
C Class racing is possibly the most popular form of historic solo motorcycle racing in the United States of America. It's origins go back to the dawn of a new technology - 'overhead valve engines'. In the early part of motorcycle history, machines equipped with these 'new' engines started appearing on the world's race tracks.
In the America, where most manufacturers preferred the 'sidevalve' configuration, a class of racing was invented to level the playing field between the 'new' engines and the more numerous sidevalves - C class racing. Overhead machines were limited to 5OOcc while sidevalves could run up to 750cc engines. So as not to overly limit the 500s, sidevalves were also restricted to handchange gears. Other limits were placed on both classes in an effort to even things on the race track.
This form of racing was still popular in the America's right up to the I950's and is again popular today. The HRR [ NSW] is promoting this form of event for Australia. The rules mirror almost exactly those in the US.
Both Spectators and competitors are encouraged to let us know how you feel about this class
and any suggested rule adjustments.
We, the HRR, hope that by including an Internationally recognised class of historic racing, more overseas competitors may be encouraged to travel to Australia to compete. To that end we are committed to this event at our future meetings NSW historic Champs (as a support event), so there is time to modify your motorcycle to compete in this new class.
Warwick Ellis
[company information removed]
Ph 02 9484 0888 Fax 02 9484 0566
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 20 May 2004 5:27:51 PM |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 11:18:17 AM
|
I'm interested in forming a special interest group devoted to racing 500cc four stroke singles. Would this category fit into Class C ?
I've noticed two guys racing Yamaha 4 stroke singles, and giving a really good account of themselves. They are obviously the guys to beat using similar machinery.
One is Andu Brebner of Victorian Motorcuycle Wreckers. The other is Harry Bell of Wiideline Engineering in Bittern.
I've been talking to a friend about making copies of my Mk3 Seeley frame - he says he can make them for $1500. I am currently looking for a 4 valve Jawa speedway engine to fit to my own bike - just to try it! The bike would end up Period 5. If you know of a good engine my number is (03) 5762 6737.
I suggest we could actually end up with a competitive class - A FIRST FOR HISTORIC RACING!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
 |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 1:14:30 PM
|
Andy Brebner rides a Yamaha SR500, Harry Bell rides a TT500. I'd really be interested to see someone like Keith Campbell on one of his 500 singles, have a go at them! Could make for interesting racing!
No two strokes, no multis, lat's get real and see who can really ride a bike. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 1:21:21 PM
|
| I suggest one of the silliest things that has happened in motorcycling in Australia, was to allow Supermono to include capacities over 500cc. The guys soon found out the name of the game was 'how fast can you afford to go?'. If the class was limited to 500cc the law of diminishing returns comes into play. There is a limit to how much you can get out of a 500cc four stroke single, no matter how much you spend. Then it comes down to the rider, and who can get the bike to handle and stop. There must be dozens of old supermono bikes lying in sheds around the country. The class is almost defunct. A 700cc single is simply ridiculous and bl**dy expensive. And what's the point anyway? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
popeye
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
187 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 10:03:06 PM
|
there is an Ivan tighe 600 honda in an RGV frame with all the street gear included going for 2 and a half grand down here at the moment, on a level playing field it would be a hoot to ride with a stock XR500 motor but as the guy found out he was still several grand short of regular top 3 spots. As a street bike it would need an FT500 bottom end (electric leg) and a truck battery cos it is an absolute pig to start.
500 singles limited to 2 valve engines any era, steel frames and P4 wheels and brakes would make for interesting racing, but I think the present racing classes need to be built up and consolidated before adding more. |
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 08:14:02 AM
|
| I shall check with the HRR rules to see if there is a limit to the age. I guess there may be room to incorporate later eras separately. But I have not forgotten about the time I tried to help you solo blokes with a similiar class and nobody turned up to support it. So dont expect me to carry the flag, thats for you blokes to do. "I may look like a bunney but I dont act like one." Go sidecars!!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 09:28:18 AM
|
| John, Noone expects you to 'be the bunny' in this. I suggest we need to have a fairly lengthy discussion about this topic. My suggestion is that we should approach MA and see whether we can get three categories of Supermono - Category A, up to 350cc - Category B, up to 500cc, and Category C, up to 750cc . This would cater for modern and historic single cylinder four strokes. All the old big motor supermonos would be catered for, and we'd have classes for 500s and 350s - they could all run together (with separate trophies), and it'd be a good support event for historic race meetings. I don't think we should set a cutoff date for the classes! What we'd end up with would be a development class for single cylinder four stroke bikes. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 09:33:07 AM
|
| Let's only have one rule for the class - only four stroke single cylinder motorcycles in each category |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
popeye
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
187 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 09:42:24 AM
|
very right John, if new classes are to happen the bus has to be driven by the potential participants.
I have my hands full with two projects for this year (P5 twin and Bucket/ultralight) and learning my level one officials stuff, would be at least two seasons before I could get another bike sorted, learn to race and have enough knowledge to preach another class, my guess is that if there was the interest people would get together and take their bikes to track/tuning days in numbers and proceed from there. Can't see a point in announcing a class then waiting a year for enough bikes to be built to run it. Homologation rules need to be formulated by participants at an early stage and presented with final submission for inclusion in HRR events
any instruction/constuctive criticism of the above is more than welcome, I still have only a slender grasp of the machinations of MA and the organisational structure and procedures of road racing |
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance |
|
|
|
popeye
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
187 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 10:07:46 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Let's only have one rule for the class - only four stroke single cylinder motorcycles in each category
WR250, CRf250, WR425, do any of these models ring a bell, methinks there would need to be a 2 valve rule or it will be a motard benefit or at least modern MX motors to rule, which doesn't sound like an attractive proposition from an historic racing perspective. I for one would love to ride Cathy's VTR with a modern open class MX engine in it, but dont think the build and running cost would justify it. |
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 12:33:14 PM
|
| As you said the other day Alan, 500cc singles dont seem to blow up like bigger bore ones. Ireckon you should have trainer wheels on this class and then I would get involved also!!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 5:20:21 PM
|
John, getting a 500cc Manx going fast and staying together was a feat which Norton achieved very well. These days there are a lot of fast 500cc four stroke singles around. Very few are being road raced.
I wouldn't even try to separate four valve from two valve motors as far as eligibility is concerned. In the UK some of the Manxes and G50s are four valve, and they run in the Historic categories. Obviously anyone who is really serious will buy a four valve Jawa. You can buy a brand new 871 DOHC motor from the dealer in Melton for $4,400. Put that in a $3000 Seeley frame with a $5000 five speed gearbox, and you'd be able to beat all the InCA guys, even if they're on Andy Molnar Manxes.
Thing about it is you'd have something to ride that is equal to any single ever built. Doesn't cost $90,000 like Barry Sheene's bike, it costs $12000.
I'm talking about the BEST 500cc supermono!
I wouldn't even think about banning deltabox frames or four spot calipers and floating discs. Most of the supermonos in existence have these already. Thing is, a good manx is hard to beat, but if they're all 500cc four stroke singles, it's almost a level playing field.
I'm currently looking for a seventies four valve Jawa to build a period 5 bike out of my 1968 Seeley. Let's see what it turns out like.
Don't kid yourself that the proposed 500cc supermono class would be slow. Have a look at the Ray Berry Manx some time! That's how fast they'd all be going! - You need a four valve Jawa to keep up with that!
The Andy Molnar Manxes and George Beale G50s turn out about 58 BHP at best, and that's what the 871 motor turns out. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
popeye
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
187 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 6:49:43 PM
|
this years WR450 puts out a claimed 58 ponies without any mods and that from an engine you could carry in a rucksack. So I need about 2 grand for a ratted RGV, 6 for a kitted WR450 motor and three more to set it up, it would weigh in under 100 kg and go like stink , you may be onto something there Al. |
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we may as well dance |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 08:40:45 AM
|
| Listen you blokes. I informed you about a class that the HRR is Sydney is promoting called C Class. Now you want to change it before you have even seen a machine. If you want to play with something different, perhaps try and start another topic. The C Class is happenning. I encourage you to look at it, it may suit you. Then if you want to talk about another class, go back to the topic I started a year or so ago and continue the talk, 500cc aussie single class.. Unfortunatetly last time talk was all we got. So pleasee look at Class C only here. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 09:18:21 AM
|
Sorry John, didn't want to change the concept, but I did ask the question - does class C include 500cc singles?
The thing is, I think we should look at what's happening to the bikes we race now! John Maher's Manx is now 700cc - I suggest it will probably launch itself. In answer to the question of where are the bikes coming from? - they are already racing in the five periods, usually together with unlimited bikes. All I'm suggesting is we run races for single cylinder bikes only, If you want to include 500cc four stroke twins and 750cc sidevalves. That's alright too. But let's make Class C 'cross period'. Let's keep four cylinder and two stroke bikes out of it! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 1:12:41 PM
|
More Info.
10.4 CLASSIC: Class C, Class C Handshift, Pre-1940 GP, Classic Sixties
10.4.1 CLASS C: This class is intended for AMA "Class C" motorcycles and
other for-sale, production- based machines of the period that existed up to
and including 1951. Like-design models also are permitted. Class C. 750cc
sidevalve (45.7 cu. in.), 500cc OHV/SOHC/DOHC (30.5 cu. in.), plus .080"
overbore. All major components must be OEM parts that existed prior to 1951,
or accurate, detailed replicas of the same parts using the same type
materials and technologies. The burden of authenticating is upon the rider.
Press clippings and photos with identifiable date may be helpful. There are
no restrictions on internal modifications, except the stroke may not be
changed from the original specifications and the bore may not exceed the
.080" overbore limit.
10.4.1A REQUIREMENTS AND MODIFICATIONS FOR CLASS C
a) All 750cc machines must use hand-shift gearboxes.
b) Norton swingarm or "featherbed" frames are not permitted.
c) All machines must use the OEM or period carb. If these carburetors are
not available, machines are limited to the following:
1) Single-cylinder/single carb-Dell'Orto SS1, Amal GP or Amal Monobloc to
32mm (11/4"). Amal Mk1 Concentric (600, 900 or 1000 series) to 34mm
(15/16").
2) Twin-cylinder/single carb-Dell'Orto SS1, Amal GP or Amal Monobloc to 30mm
(13/16"). Amal Mk1 Concentric (600 or 900 series) to 32mm (11/4").
3) Twin-cylinder/twin carb-Dell'Orto SS1, Amal GP, Amal Monobloc or Amal Mk1
Concentric (600, 900 or 1000 series) to 28mm (11/8").
4) 750cc sidevalve machines must use one OEMor exact replica butterfly-type
carburetor, or abide by the above twin-cylinder rules.
d) Wheels and brakes: Minimum wheel diameter is 16 inches. Maximum rim width
is WM3 (steel or alloy). Wider steel rims are acceptable if they were
provided as original equipment on that model. Wire-spoke wheels and drum
brakes are required on both wheels. Brakes must be OEM equipment. Or, if
changed, brakes must be single-leading/single-trailing shoe type. Maximum
brake diameter is 8.75 inches, and maximum shoe width is 1.75 inches.
e) Gearboxes must not have more than 4 speeds, regardless of original
specification.
f) Safety bars, stands, lights and mufflers must be removed.
g) Fairings or streamlining are not permitted. The front number plate must
be parallel with the front fork angle.
h) Total-loss oiling is not permitted. Oil must not be deposited on the
track.
i) Triumph pre-unit 500cc twins may use 650cc crankshaft but must not exceed
.020" overbore.
j) The throttle must be self-closing, and a handlebar-mounted kill switch
included.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 2:12:59 PM
|
The cut-off date of 1951 for this class, makes it good for early bikes. Perhaps we need to develop a similar class for bikes up to 1983. It would cover Periods 3 to 5.
In the seventies Husquvana or KTM developed a light four stroke 500cc single. There was one brought to Australia, and I don't know where it went. In those days two strokes were the rage, and the bike didn't do much good. So it fell out of use. Thing is, these days we might have the sense to see that any class which lets two strokes or four cylinder bikes run against singles is just stupid! Anyone can get a 500cc Honda four going as fast as the works bikes did back then, same with two strokes. We all want to cheat, but I suggest that it doesn't matter how much you spend on a single cylinder four stroke 500 you don't get any faster than a certain level!
I noticed Dave Gazeley's Gold Star BSA for sale a while back ($14000). Why would you race such a valuable bike, when there are speedway engines lying around for a grand a piece? Even a $200 BSA frame with a Jawa in it would be better, and you wouldn't destroy a piece of history. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 2:17:39 PM
|
If you think back a bit. Back in the seventies Craig McDonald bought a Mk2 Seeley with a G60 in it, from Tassy. He had it at Winton and it launched itself bigtime. That bike was effectively the fastest British four stroke single ever made. In 1972 Paul Smart won the Czech GP on one against the two strokes.
If you had one today, it wouldn't be competitive in any class of historic racing in Australia. So you've got to admit - something's wrong with the classes! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 7:24:40 PM
|
| I've found a decent 1978 model motor at the right price. So the 500cc single cylinder four stroke Mk3 Seeley is going to happen. Should be interesting. I've always wanted to try the Seeley set up as original (sort of). |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 6:13:49 PM
|
I'm after a bit of advice. What motor should I fit in the Seeley? I'm about to spend a grand on a motor. I've been offered a 1978 Godden GR500 (60 BHP) but parts are a bit hard to get, a DOHC Jawa 1978 - plenty of parts (58BHP). Or do I fit a two valve Jawa and keep the bike elgible for P4? The competition these days in P5 are the two guys I mentioned with the Yamaha four strokes. I think in P4 its 450 Ducatis and 500cc Honda fours.
I don't really know what to do. Perhaps I should just leave the 850 Commando in it, and get blown away by every overbored Honda 750?
Is there a P4 500cc class which ever runs separately from the unlimited? I think I might be better off fitting the fastest motor and putting up with the two strokes in P5?
When you start looking, there are a lot of really good old speedway motors around. I notice Inca exclude them under their rules, but we know what they can do! George Beale just wants everyone to buy his G50 motors. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 7:47:38 PM
|
| Best advice for you is keep of the Prozac, the topic is American C Class racing, [edit by admin: Please do not vent personal attacks at other users, everyone is entitled to their opinion]! |
Jayne |
|
|
|
bruce pederick
Level 2 Member
Victoria
27 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 8:24:31 PM
|
See REmember When
Bruped |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 02:08:06 AM
|
[edit by admin: Same goes here Al, do not reply if it upsets you, send me a message and I will remove it if I feel it should be removed]
think on this: Every class of historic racers is full of cheaters. There are bikes which were never around 'back then'. In fact a well known racer from years ago mentioned historic racing the other day, with a view to participating. He said if the big Hondas had turned up on a grid in the seventies we would have roared laughing at them! He asked why Z900s weren't allowed, if you can put those on the grid?
Play with period C, Spend your money. It will probably still attract the cheaters. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 02:19:00 AM
|
| The four speed gearbox rule looks good, should save a dollar. The class is obviously for the 'pre-war' bikes, and it should help get some originality back. Does Class C racing herald a new approach to eligibility? It's about time! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 12:11:50 PM
|
| Good to see we are back on line with Class C. The HRR in Sydney are the real keen promoters of that class. I encourage anybody to come on board. with the existing rules. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 1:21:08 PM
|
| We have included C Class in all HMRAV for 12 months. After that time we shall review the offer depending on the numbers turning up. So please if you are thinking about it, let me know. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 2:49:44 PM
|
| When will HMRAV be running the first Class C races? I want to come and have a look. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 8:14:25 PM
|
Bit off topic but at today's Titles practice at Broadford a road going R1 with traffic indicators still mounted dialed in a lot of laps at sub 60 sec. I think maybe 59.4 was the best. Rider was S.J.
A classic in the making and you can ride it to work. |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 11:29:34 PM
|
| Every meeting from the Southern classic. One problem is that there are only 2 potential C class in Victoria, the Land of the Good, but plenty in NSW. But we can pray they will come down for a burn. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 10:31:15 AM
|
I get the impression that Class C is designed to attract pre 49 bikes (Period 2)in particular. Is that correct? I note that featherbed frames are specifically excluded, does that mean that the intention is to allow BSA, Enfield, Seeley, Rickman and Egli?
As the Class stands, seems to me that Cal Carrick's HRD, The Rudge from NSW, would be very hard to beat. Or have I got the wrong impression? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 10:58:05 AM
|
| Apart from allowing 750cc sidevalves to run, what is the difference between Class C and a period 2 500cc race? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
